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  • FIRST POST
    • MSE Archna
    • By MSE Archna 18th Mar 08, 10:39 AM
    • 1,874Posts
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    MSE Archna
    TV Licence article Discussion
    • #1
    • 18th Mar 08, 10:39 AM
    TV Licence article Discussion 18th Mar 08 at 10:39 AM


    This thread is specifically to discuss the the


    To discuss or ask a question about this article: click reply
    Last edited by MSE Researcher; 14-06-2010 at 3:08 PM.
    Report inappropriate posts: forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com




Page 172
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 22nd Aug 19, 6:51 PM
    • 13,467 Posts
    • 16,363 Thanks
    Cornucopia
    I think it's quite tricky for reputable consumer outlets like MSE to hit the right line with this - the BBC puts them in an invidious position.

    There is plenty of misleading BBC lore and jargon that heavily suggests legal powers over the main enforcement activities where there are none, and I don't think any mainstream organisation wants to be seen to be undermining law enforcement activities unless there is a very compelling reason.

    At the same time, there are some basic, and unanswered questions about TV Licensing that any investigative journalist really should be asking themselves, and then asking the BBC:-

    - How is the process supposed to work to catch evaders?
    - How is the process supposed to work to "check" households that are not evading?
    - Is it true that there are no legal powers covering the main enforcement activity and, if not, what statutory power is there and where in legislation is it?
    - If householders refuse to co-operate with TV Licensing, is it true that TVL are largely powerless?
    - Why won't TV Licensing disclose the tiny number of TVL warrants that are issued each year?
    - Is it right that TV Licensing has a tendency to be economical with the truth, and is that lawful where the matters concerned are within the scope of the Human Rights Act (like privacy in one's own home)?

    I should say that we know that there are issues in some of these areas because TVL and the BBC make contradictory statements on them within their own communications.
    Last edited by Cornucopia; 22-08-2019 at 6:53 PM.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    The Money Savers Arms and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • Bedsit Bob
    • By Bedsit Bob 24th Aug 19, 11:45 AM
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    Bedsit Bob
    - How is the process supposed to work to catch evaders?
    Originally posted by Cornucopia
    Given they have no power of entry, then, without the use of questionable behaviour, there isn't a way for it to work.

    - How is the process supposed to work to "check" households that are not evading?
    As above, without using questionable behaviour, it can't.

    - Is it true that there are no legal powers covering the main enforcement activity and, if not, what statutory power is there and where in legislation is it?
    Save for the (incredibly rare) Search warrant, their "enforcement activity" relies entirely on the cooperation of the householder.

    - If householders refuse to co-operate with TV Licensing, is it true that TVL are largely powerless?
    In a word, YES.

    - Why won't TV Licensing disclose the tiny number of TVL warrants that are issued each year?
    Because the threat is a scare tactic, to be used against householders who refuse to let the doorstepper in, even though such threats are in breach of their own SOPs.

    - Is it right that TV Licensing has a tendency to be economical with the truth
    Depends by what you mean by "is it right".

    If you mean do they do it?, then yes they do.

    However, if you mean is it legally/morally right, then the answer is no, it's not.

    and is that lawful where the matters concerned are within the scope of the Human Rights Act (like privacy in one's own home)?
    No, it's not.
    1984 WAS NOT AN INSTRUCTION MANUAL.

    Amount I have so far denied the BBC - £1308

    You can't be a Christian AND a Socialist.
    • Rapidos
    • By Rapidos 9th Sep 19, 2:47 PM
    • 1 Posts
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    Rapidos
    Overpaid licence fee.
    Stupidly,(ornot),have overpaid fee by double every 2 weeks for around 5 years!
    My other half was advised to pay an amount every 2 weeks,that I,ve only just come across and realised itís double the amount.
    Now realising this I,d like to know If anyone has ever been in the same boat and what chance has a successful application for a refund got?
    I,ve heard TVL have a bad rep for such matters so before going down the path I thought I,d see if anyone could suggest advice/legalities of a formal claim..etc.
    • stragglebod
    • By stragglebod 9th Sep 19, 6:32 PM
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    stragglebod
    You want to make a 'formal' claim (which I presume you mean court proceedings) without even contacting TVL first? Not a very good idea.
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 9th Sep 19, 6:58 PM
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    • 16,363 Thanks
    Cornucopia
    Stupidly,(ornot),have overpaid fee by double every 2 weeks for around 5 years!
    My other half was advised to pay an amount every 2 weeks,that I,ve only just come across and realised itís double the amount.
    Now realising this I,d like to know If anyone has ever been in the same boat and what chance has a successful application for a refund got?
    I,ve heard TVL have a bad rep for such matters so before going down the path I thought I,d see if anyone could suggest advice/legalities of a formal claim..etc.
    Originally posted by Rapidos
    You should definitely be able to get a refund for the last 2 years, and this should be relatively automatic, if they accept your reasoning for the double-payment.

    Beyond that will be at their discretion.

    A legal/formal claim process might be difficult, because this is a tax levied by an official body (the BBC). If you want to pursue it further then there is an official complaint and escalation process on the TVL website.

    https://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/about/making-a-complaint-AB7
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    The Money Savers Arms and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • Mutton Geoff
    • By Mutton Geoff 13th Sep 19, 7:46 PM
    • 1,649 Posts
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    Mutton Geoff
    My gf has moved out of her rented place and into mine. During August, she cleared out all her stuff and gave her TV away to a friend since we already have one here.


    She applied for a refund of her licence fee (about six months) and filled in the form, adding a copy of the tenancy termination which ends tomorrow (14th Sept) but confirmed she had not lived at the property, or had a TV there since 21st August.


    Today they wrote to her (at her new/my address that she'd provided) saying that "the evidence you have provided is insufficient to support your refund application".


    How on earth can her moving into (and being written to at) a place that already has a licence and her confirmation she no longer owns or watches TV at her old address be "insufficient evidence".


    Any idea how to escalate this before I blow a fuse on her behalf?
    Compensation/Refunds - £4,655 | Stooz Profits - £7,636 | Quidco - £4,365 | Tax Avoidance - £107,000
    All with a big thank you to Martin and MSE.com from Mutton Geoff!
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 13th Sep 19, 7:59 PM
    • 13,467 Posts
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    Cornucopia
    When requesting a refund from TV Licensing, it is better to simply say that you will no longer be watch/recording TV broadcasts or using iPlayer. There is no evidence that they could conceivably require for that, and they do not ask for any.

    If a person is moving to an address that is already licensed, I'd even suggest cancelling the existing licence at the new address (with the no licence needed reason as above) and then transferring-in the licence with the person who is moving in. That avoids the refund cheque being sent to the old address.

    Having got past that point, it could be that they are being awkward because the tenancy termination has not yet happened. You could reapply after tomorrow.

    Or you could complain to the TVL Operations Director using the details in the post above.
    Last edited by Cornucopia; 13-09-2019 at 8:02 PM.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    The Money Savers Arms and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • JimmyTheWig
    • By JimmyTheWig 17th Sep 19, 2:59 PM
    • 11,885 Posts
    • 11,412 Thanks
    JimmyTheWig
    My gf has moved out of her rented place and into mine. During August, she cleared out all her stuff and gave her TV away to a friend since we already have one here.


    She applied for a refund of her licence fee (about six months) and filled in the form, adding a copy of the tenancy termination which ends tomorrow (14th Sept) but confirmed she had not lived at the property, or had a TV there since 21st August.


    Today they wrote to her (at her new/my address that she'd provided) saying that "the evidence you have provided is insufficient to support your refund application".


    How on earth can her moving into (and being written to at) a place that already has a licence and her confirmation she no longer owns or watches TV at her old address be "insufficient evidence".


    Any idea how to escalate this before I blow a fuse on her behalf?
    Originally posted by Mutton Geoff
    There can be no evidence to support a backdated claim. It would have been possible for your girlfriend to have gone back there and watched TV. If an officer came and checked she would have had a valid TV licence and so all fine. If they allowed backdated claims with no evidence then anyone who hasn't had an inspection (i.e. most people) could claim a refund.
    As far as I am aware, you can only get a refund from the date you tell them about it.
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 17th Sep 19, 4:06 PM
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    Cornucopia
    You can get TVL refunds for up to 2 years, but it depends on the circumstances as to whether they will allow it without a struggle.

    I think that Mutton Geoff is talking about a refund of a pre-payment - either credit built up under a payment plan, or outstanding unused time on an annual Licence. Either of those can be refunded, again, under the right circumstances.

    Unfortunately, this "requirement" for evidence that a Licence is/was not required is another grey area - it is not a requirement built in to the legislation, other than through the BBC's general powers to set the Terms and Conditions under which Licences are issued.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    The Money Savers Arms and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • Phil555
    • By Phil555 18th Sep 19, 7:22 AM
    • 3 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Phil555
    Hi, been reading through this Thread with interest.

    I am still quite confused about the license as it is worded in so many different ways when I read through the BBC info.

    As a household we don't watch any "Live TV" events such as sport etc

    Couple of questions please..

    Do I need a license if I am watching or recording say "Peaky Blinders"?
    Do I need a license if I am watching the news on any channel as this is classed as "Live TV"?
    Do I need a license if I am watching a recorded program that is not "Live TV"?

    Thanks in adviance,

    Phil.
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 18th Sep 19, 7:33 AM
    • 13,467 Posts
    • 16,363 Thanks
    Cornucopia
    Hi, been reading through this Thread with interest.

    I am still quite confused about the license as it is worded in so many different ways when I read through the BBC info.

    As a household we don't watch any "Live TV" events such as sport etc

    Couple of questions please..

    Do I need a license if I am watching or recording say "Peaky Blinders"?
    Do I need a license if I am watching the news on any channel as this is classed as "Live TV"?
    Do I need a license if I am watching a recorded program that is not "Live TV"?

    Thanks in adviance,

    Phil.
    Originally posted by Phil555
    The Licence is a licence to receive TV broadcasts - all of them. The term "Live TV" is an unhelpfully ambiguous term, as you have found. (And to their shame, BBC-TVL undertook a public survey to test the Public's understanding in 2016, and found that 59% did not understand the term in the way required to successfully interpret its own communications about the TV Licence).

    What they mean by "Live TV" is programming that is transmitted in real time, rather than being catch-up or video-on-demand. So, unfortunately, that means that the answer to all three of your questions is: yes.

    Once you ditch the notion of "Live TV", the rules are pretty straightforward:-

    You need a TV Licence to...

    - Watch or record TV Broadcasts ("linear channels") received via traditional means (terrestrial, satellite or cable TV).

    - Watch the Internet-streamed versions of the channels above.

    - Use BBC iPlayer to watch or download BBC programs (but not radio or S4C programs).

    https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/tv-licence/
    Last edited by Cornucopia; 18-09-2019 at 7:38 AM.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    The Money Savers Arms and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • Phil555
    • By Phil555 18th Sep 19, 8:10 AM
    • 3 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Phil555
    The Licence is a licence to receive TV broadcasts - all of them. The term "Live TV" is an unhelpfully ambiguous term, as you have found. (And to their shame, BBC-TVL undertook a public survey to test the Public's understanding in 2016, and found that 59% did not understand the term in the way required to successfully interpret its own communications about the TV Licence).

    What they mean by "Live TV" is programming that is transmitted in real time, rather than being catch-up or video-on-demand. So, unfortunately, that means that the answer to all three of your questions is: yes.

    Once you ditch the notion of "Live TV", the rules are pretty straightforward:-

    You need a TV Licence to...

    - Watch or record TV Broadcasts ("linear channels") received via traditional means (terrestrial, satellite or cable TV).

    - Watch the Internet-streamed versions of the channels above.

    - Use BBC iPlayer to watch or download BBC programs (but not radio or S4C programs).]
    Originally posted by Cornucopia
    Looks like I need a license then............................

    Thanks for the clarification.

    Good to hear a clear explanation that is actually understanable.

    Thanks again, much appreciated.
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 18th Sep 19, 10:27 AM
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    • 16,363 Thanks
    Cornucopia
    Looks like I need a license then............................
    Originally posted by Phil555
    I think so.

    As described in the MSE article, it's not necessarily that difficult to not need a Licence. You can still watch catch-up services from the commercial broadcasters, most content from Youtube and all the video-on-demand content from Now TV, Netflix and Amazon.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    The Money Savers Arms and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • keith969
    • By keith969 18th Sep 19, 11:33 AM
    • 1,530 Posts
    • 1,109 Thanks
    keith969
    FFS

    The BBC license is a form of tax. Think of it like council tax. You want to watch TV - you pay the tax
    For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple and wrong.
    • wymondham
    • By wymondham 19th Sep 19, 6:00 AM
    • 5,743 Posts
    • 10,948 Thanks
    wymondham
    FFS

    The BBC license is a form of tax. Think of it like council tax. You want to watch TV - you pay the tax
    Originally posted by keith969
    Not strictly true, only if you want to watch LIVE tv..... (or BBC catchup).

    So easy to make small changes so you don't need to pay the licence I'm amazed more don't do it... I suspect most young people don't need to pay the licence due to the way they get content, and the rest of us just need to not stick to TV schedules to achieve most of it... easiest moneysaving thing ever...
    • oldernonethewiser
    • By oldernonethewiser 19th Sep 19, 1:13 PM
    • 402 Posts
    • 456 Thanks
    oldernonethewiser
    Had my visit from TVL today

    TVL - do you live here?
    Me - yes
    TVL - do you have a TV licence?
    Me - no
    TVL - So no TV or anything in the property?
    Me - correct
    TVL - Can I come in and verify that?
    Me - no
    TVL - okay thanks. Bye






    Licence - noun.
    License - verb.
    • redmike58
    • By redmike58 19th Sep 19, 2:55 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    redmike58
    TV Licence for BBC News and Sports Websites
    Hi,
    Silly question maybe, but I just wanted to know if I would be required to have a licence for having BBC News, BBC Sport and BBC Weather websites as apps on my iPad and on my laptop.
    I do not watch TV other than Netflix and YouTube and listen mainly to the radio.
    I do not have a licence but am unsure about the websites.
    To confirm, I do not watch ANY live TV in any form.
    • dan958
    • By dan958 19th Sep 19, 3:03 PM
    • 288 Posts
    • 509 Thanks
    dan958
    Hi,
    Silly question maybe, but I just wanted to know if I would be required to have a licence for having BBC News, BBC Sport and BBC Weather websites as apps on my iPad and on my laptop.
    I do not watch TV other than Netflix and YouTube and listen mainly to the radio.
    I do not have a licence but am unsure about the websites.
    To confirm, I do not watch ANY live TV in any form.
    Originally posted by redmike58
    No, only if you are watching live tv, or on demand from Iplayer.
    Grocery Challenge
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    • cw18
    • By cw18 19th Sep 19, 5:09 PM
    • 8,083 Posts
    • 86,086 Thanks
    cw18
    Had my visit from TVL today

    TVL - do you live here?
    Me - yes
    TVL - do you have a TV licence?
    Me - no
    TVL - So no TV or anything in the property?
    Me - correct
    TVL - Can I come in and verify that?
    Me - no
    TVL - okay thanks. Bye
    Originally posted by oldernonethewiser
    Had I agreed to answer any questions, my answer to the 3rd would have been different as I have 3 TV sets in my house. And I assume the 'or anything' could include laptop (3), desktop PC (1), tablet (1) and mobile phone (2 that work).
    But do I watch Live TV or iPlayer? No, and it's that rather than owning a TV set which requires a licence.
    Therefore I don't need a licence.
    Last edited by cw18; 19-09-2019 at 5:13 PM.
    Cheryl
    • FreeBear
    • By FreeBear 19th Sep 19, 8:45 PM
    • 3,074 Posts
    • 4,046 Thanks
    FreeBear
    Had I agreed to answer any questions, my answer to the 3rd would have been different
    Originally posted by cw18

    My answer to the first three would have been "None of your business", and the last, an emphatic refusal.
    Her courage will change the world.

    Treasure the moments that you have. Savour them for as long as you can for they will never come back again.
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