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  • FIRST POST
    • IloveBritannia
    • By IloveBritannia 25th Oct 18, 1:56 PM
    • 75Posts
    • 23Thanks
    IloveBritannia
    Britannia + BW Legal court papers
    • #1
    • 25th Oct 18, 1:56 PM
    Britannia + BW Legal court papers 25th Oct 18 at 1:56 PM
    So it's happening...


    After months of being chased by Britannia and it's different guises and me replying in a robust fashion, BW Legal have now taken over and the court papers have been issued.


    The background:
    - the driver allegedly overstayed 15mins on a free 3h retail park car park, the 'proof' being two time stamped photos, one of showing the front, the other the back of the car, location impossible to identify
    - the car park in question had had no restrictions for over 20years until a couple of months prior to the alleged contravention, according to the retail park staff hundreds of people have been caught unawares whilst doing their Christmas shopping, the new parking restriction signage not designed to attract attention therefore easily missed by everyone used to the previous no-restrictions-parking
    -penalty notice received within 14 days addressed to the registered keeper, nothing to pick on
    -appeal rejected by Britannia, no appeal to POPLA
    -several letters from debt recovery firms rebuffed or ignored
    -last August a letter from BW Legal (is Britannia sharing my data with them legally??), robustly rebuffed
    -a couple of days ago a claim form from CC Business Centre arrived claiming amount of 160 + court fee 25 + legal costs 50


    There are numerous points I'm considering in defence, including no proof of location, no mention of Britannia on the signage, possibility of unnoticed double entry, appallingly poor signage.


    I wasn't driving the car at the time, got my strong suspicions but will keep them to myself, I'm obviously the registered keeper being sued.


    Any useful advice will be received with gratitude, I have already read many useful posts on this forum but each case seems different so feeling very apprehensive to say the least...
Page 5
    • IloveBritannia
    • By IloveBritannia 20th Nov 18, 10:14 PM
    • 75 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    IloveBritannia
    Sure!

    I don't really know how to thank you Coupon-Mad, and also all the other people who selflessly contributed their time to helping me and other hapless RKs...
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 20th Nov 18, 10:15 PM
    • 74,679 Posts
    • 87,228 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    No problem, now do not be a stranger on here and make sure you have read bargepole's summary of what happens next & how to fill in and serve/file each form, from now on.

    The NEWBIES thread tells you what to expect and you need to jump through a few hoops yet.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 20th Nov 18, 10:18 PM
    • 15,941 Posts
    • 19,023 Thanks
    KeithP
    So it's now back to re-read post #4 on this thread.
    .
    • IloveBritannia
    • By IloveBritannia 3rd Jan 19, 11:00 AM
    • 75 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    IloveBritannia
    So the dormant company Britannia Parking has decided to pursue the claim despite our fantastic defence, not sure what to make of it...
    • IloveBritannia
    • By IloveBritannia 18th Jun 19, 6:58 PM
    • 75 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    IloveBritannia
    Hi guys,

    Half a year later it's now time to prepare my defence as BW have just paid their hearing fee which I'd been hoping would never happen. The hearing's provisionally set for the 12th July.
    In the meantime BW offered to accept a lower payment of 160 which I generously counter-offered with 25 but they refused saying that they had already spent more than that.

    Interestingly, they also sent me a letter where they 'demolished' my defence as follows:

    _We write with reference to the above matter. We note your defence alludes to your reasons for disputing our client's Parking Charge Notice (PCN). We have set out our client's position below in response to your defence.
    Background
    l . For the avoidance of any doubt, our client's claim is for damages as a direct result of your breach of our client's terms and conditions.
    2. For all intents and purposes, our client has a legitimate commercial interest and sufficient standing to (a) issue Parking Charge Notices (PCN) as a result of the terms and conditions being breached and (b) bring proceedings in its own name.
    3. The signage situated across the Car Park forms a unilateral offer to anyone wishing to park their vehicle at the location. As the offer is a unilateral one, there is no need for the motorist to communicate their acceptance; the performance of parking in accordance with the terms and conditions is the act of acceptance. The signs are prominent and the terms and conditions are clearly displayed, and the motorist would have had the opportunity to read and understand them on parking at the Car Park. An objective observer would consider this action to have been done in acceptance of the terms and conditions.
    Core Terms and Conditions
    4. The signage erected at the Car Park contained, inter alia, the following terms and conditions:
    "Maximum Stay 3 hours
    100 Parking Charge Notice may be issued to vehicles which:
    Exceed the maximum stay period"
    The Breach
    5. On 16 November 2017 (Contravention Date), we are instructed that you were registered keeper and/or the driver of a vehicle bearing the registration mark xxxxxx, (Vehicle) which was parked on private land (i.e. Slough- Slough Retail Park Slough) managed by our client (Car Park).
    6. The terms and conditions which you accepted upon entering the Car Park, are clear and unambiguous. The terms make it clear that you should not park longer than the time permitted.
    7. The enclosed photographs taken by the Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) cameras shows your Vehicle entering the Car Park at 11:15:07 and exiting at 14:32:41. The total time your Vehicle remained on site amounts to 3 hours 17 minutes 34 seconds. Our Client has reconciled the images taken from the ANPR cameras, the vehicle registration numbers of vehicles that entered and exited the car park on the contravention date and then compared it against the data extracted from the Car Park to determine whether or not the terms and conditions of the Car Park has been breached. The logs shows that your vehicle overstayed by 17 minutes 34 seconds.
    8. As a result of the breach, our client is well within their contractual rights to issue the PCN and take all necessary steps (including bringing legal proceedings) to recover the outstanding charge.
    Your Defence
    9. Having reviewed your defence, we note that you have admitted being the registered keeper at the Contravention Date. As the registered keeper of the Vehicle, and given that you had not provided our client with the full name and serviceable address of the driver within 28 days from the date of the PCN, our client is able to hold you liable for the unpaid parking charge under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.
    10. Our client fully complies with the BPA code of practice. 10 minutes is the grace period defined by the British Parking Association ('BPA'). However, your vehicle overstayed by 7 minutes 34 seconds out of the grace period.
    I l. Furthermore you made an allegation that our client had breached paragraph 20.14 and 22.8 of the BPA code of practice. As far as our client is concerned, the first paragraph refers to "reasonable cause" to be included in the Notice to Keeper ('NK'). In your case, a reasonable
    cause which is the contravention has been included. In reference to paragraph 22.8, our client had 35 days under the same provision after the acknowledgement of your appeal which you submitted online.
    12. Under the BPA Code of Practice, Part B, Section 23 Recovering unpaid parking charges states, "Where a Parking Charge becomes overdue and before Court Proceedings have commenced, a reasonable sum (which covers the cost of recovering debt) may be added for the debt recovery fees. This sum must not exceed 70 unless prior approval from the BPA has been granted." Our client has been reasonable to add 60.
    l . The 100 charge is regarded as a charge for contravening the terms and conditions. The sum payable following the issue of the PCN occurs on the happening of a specific event (i.e. a material breach of the Terms and Conditions) and is therefore a core term of our client's contract with you. It is irrelevant whether or not the charge as displayed bears any relation to the cost for parking (even where there is no cost involved). Our Client relies on the leading authority of ParkingEye Limited v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67, where the Supreme Court held that PCN charges, like this charge, serve a legitimate commercial interest. The relevant car parking Codes of Practice, also give guidance that 100.00 is a reasonable sum to charge.
    2. In the light of the above, our client does not see any merit to your allegation.

    _______________________________________
    • IloveBritannia
    • By IloveBritannia 18th Jun 19, 7:11 PM
    • 75 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    IloveBritannia
    They have also included a copy of their contract for services which apparently enables them to pursue the 'offenders' in courts. Their 'client' seems to be a rather obscure company with a non-functional website who have never owned that retail park.

    Here's a copy of that contract:


    This AGREEMENT is made between:
    CUSTOMER Care Facilities Management, 116 Golders Green Road, London, NWII 8HB
    SUPPLIER BRITANNIA PARKING SERVICES LIMITED (company number 8187238)
    Britannia House 16 Poole Hill
    Bournemouth
    Dorset
    BH2 5PS
    DATE 5th June 2017
    CAR PARK Slough Retail Park, Twinches Lane, Slough, SL1 5AD
    TERM This Agreement will remain in place until terminated in accordance with the provisions under the heading TERMINATION hereinafter contained.

    TERMINATION This Agreement will remain in place until either:
    a) The CUSTOMER gives to the SUPPLIER three months? written notice to terminate this Agreement (such notice not being capable of taking effect until the date 36 months after the date of this Agreement); or
    b) The SUPPLIER gives to the CUSTOMER three months! written notice to terminate this Agreement; or
    c) Following receipt of a local authority enforcement notice which prevents the CAR PARK from being operated as envisaged by this Agreement, either party may give written notice to the other terminating this Agreement, such termination to take effect upon service of the notice.
    SERVICES The CUSTOMER agrees to permit the SUPPLIER to exclusively administer and collect fees in respect of parking at the CAR PARK in accordance with the onsite signage.
    PARKING CHARGE NOTICE
    REVENUE (PCN) The CUSTOMER agrees to allow the SUPPLIER to patrol the CAR PARK and to issue parking charge notices to vehicles or their keepers / owners which do not comply with the on-site signage and regulations and to retain 100% of a resulting income therefrom.
    EQUIPMENT The CUSTOMER permits the SUPPLIER to install its Automatic Number Plate
    Recognition (ANPR) cameras and to erect signage accordance with section 6.1.d of the Approved Operators Scheme. The SUPPLIER's equipment will remain its property and will be removed at the end of the term by the SUPPLIER.

    INSURANCE The SUPPLIER will have or arrange with a reputable insurer and maintain at all times during the term of this agreement public liability and employee liability insurance in the amount of EIO million and on request will provide evidence of the existence of this policy to the CUSTOMER.
    BPA / AOS BRmSH PARKING ASSOCIATIONS APPROVED OPERATORS SCHEME AUTHORISATION
    The CUSTOMER accepts that the agreement with Britannia Parking Services Limited and its parent company Britannia Parking Group Limited in respect of the CAR PARK will be carried out in accordance with the requirements of the British Parking Associations AOS Code (Approved Operator Scheme), and hereby authorises the SUPPLIER and its parent company at their discretion to take legal action to recover parking charges where they remain unpaid.
    CONFIDENTIALITY Both parties undertake to treat as confidential all information derived from or obtained in connection with the execution of this Agreement and will not divulge or communicate such information to any person, except to their professional representatives or advisers, to any third party except to the extent that this is expressly permitted under this Agreement.
    NOTICES Any notice given under this agreement shall be in writing to the respective party at the address referred to within this agreement or other addresses as notified by each party from time to time.
    NO TENANCY The SUPPLIER and the CUSTOMER acknowledge that this Agreement is an agreement to supply services. The CUSTOMER and the SUPPLIER agree that no relationship of landlord and tenant is created in relation to the operation of this Agreement at the CAR PARK nor shall the provisions of this
    Agreement create in favour of the SUPPLIER any tenancy or similar interest in respect of the CAR PARK.

    Signed for and on behalf of the CUSTOMER
    Print name xxxxxx
    Date 29/6/17
    Signed for and on behalf of the SUPPLIER
    Print name (no name given)
    Date



    As always, any advice will be warmly welcome
    • Castle
    • By Castle 18th Jun 19, 7:11 PM
    • 2,298 Posts
    • 3,142 Thanks
    Castle
    I assume that their client/claimant is still Britannia Parking Ltd?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 18th Jun 19, 7:13 PM
    • 74,679 Posts
    • 87,228 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Methinks they doth protest too much! And most of that is a template:

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=75889988#post75889988

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=75306268#post75306268

    ''The signage situated across the Car Park forms a unilateral offer to anyone...''

    Yawn!

    They have not 'demolished' your defence. You are allowed time to drive in and out and the 3 hours is presumably offered as 3 hours parking on a sign somewhere (as opposed to 3 hours max stay). And your defence pointed out that the exit photograph shows the car no longer in the private car park, but queuing or slowly approaching a main road/public highway at an unidentified exit roadway junction.

    And the claim was filed in the name of a dormant company: "Britannia Parking Ltd".

    And your defence also mentioned that the 60 debt collection and 50 legal fees are both false.

    You have loads to go on and I haven't even mentioned the sparse signs or landowner authority above!
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • IloveBritannia
    • By IloveBritannia 18th Jun 19, 7:13 PM
    • 75 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    IloveBritannia
    Yes, that's correct.
    • IloveBritannia
    • By IloveBritannia 18th Jun 19, 7:24 PM
    • 75 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    IloveBritannia
    Hi CouponMad,

    Many thanks for your comments including that of a sparse signage, however in their letter they did include loads of photos of their signs and also a map which shows that car park absolutely peppered with signage. Me me in turn, has nothing to contradict that as by the time I decided to go there to take my own photos, the park was already under a different management
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 18th Jun 19, 7:29 PM
    • 74,679 Posts
    • 87,228 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    OK so you have everything else.

    Are you saying these signs have the 100 (or 85 or whatever) in large letters?
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • IloveBritannia
    • By IloveBritannia 18th Jun 19, 7:34 PM
    • 75 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    IloveBritannia
    As photos were taken at a close range they do look quite big, though that is clearly subjective.

    The fact is, any person used to that car park having been previously free would have failed to notice them unless they happened to just cast their eyes on them.
    • IloveBritannia
    • By IloveBritannia 18th Jun 19, 7:37 PM
    • 75 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    IloveBritannia
    I know that I'm supposed to send to the court all documents I intent to rely on in my defence two weeks before the hearing. I have already sent the defence itself, what else do you guys think I should add?
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 18th Jun 19, 8:36 PM
    • 15,941 Posts
    • 19,023 Thanks
    KeithP
    I know that I'm supposed to send to the court all documents I intent to rely on in my defence two weeks before the hearing. I have already sent the defence itself, what else do you guys think I should add?
    Originally posted by IloveBritannia
    What??

    Witness Statement and evidence of course.

    Are you no longer following the guidance offered in post #2 of the NEWBIES thread?
    .
    • IloveBritannia
    • By IloveBritannia 25th Jun 19, 8:58 PM
    • 75 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    IloveBritannia
    Darn, what was I thinking?!
    WS now underway...
    Sadly, Britannia appears to have woken up and is no longer dormant, so that argument now goes out of the window
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 25th Jun 19, 9:06 PM
    • 15,941 Posts
    • 19,023 Thanks
    KeithP
    The hearing's provisionally set for the 12th July.
    Originally posted by IloveBritannia
    So you have precisely three days to file and serve your Witness Statement and evidence.
    .
    • IloveBritannia
    • By IloveBritannia 25th Jun 19, 9:32 PM
    • 75 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    IloveBritannia
    I know, and I'll do it.

    Got confused again on which Britannia Parking Ltd is active and which dormant... information overload methinks. However there's nothing to suggest that they tried to correct it in this instance.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 25th Jun 19, 11:22 PM
    • 74,679 Posts
    • 87,228 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Sadly, Britannia appears to have woken up and is no longer dormant, so that argument now goes out of the window
    Originally posted by IloveBritannia
    Still says 'dormant' if you mean this firm name:

    https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/03175808

    Show us your WS and list of evidence.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Medicnow
    • By Medicnow 26th Jun 19, 11:46 AM
    • 13 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    Medicnow
    Keep an eye on the fees as when I got one through these clowns I had one letter from BW legal explaining fees breakdown inc their costs next one was what they submitted to court and the fees were completely different but same total.
    Get in touch with land owner as it does work I got mine cancelled at the 12th hour albeit brittania and bw refused to talk to each other confirming it was cancelled making me do more leg work through the land owner who I think was getting a. Bit miffed by the end
    • IloveBritannia
    • By IloveBritannia 26th Jun 19, 4:34 PM
    • 75 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    IloveBritannia
    The landowner has since changed and so has the parking operator, so zero chance of that happening, not that I haven't tried before, but I do appreciate your suggestion.

    Coupon-Mad,
    Do you think I should mention the dormant Britannia in my evidence (and risk the active Britannia correcting the claimant's particulars just prior to the hearing), or wait until the hearing?
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