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Speeding ticket, calibration certificate

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Comments

  • SHAFT
    SHAFT Posts: 565 Forumite
    I don't want to start the usual argument but you have it wrong because "reasonable doubt" does not enter into it. The prosecution does not have to prove that the device was reliable. An approved device operated in the approved manner is assumed to be working correctly unless the contrary can be proved. They will produce evidence that it was an approved device and that it was operated correctly. The court then makes the assumption that it is reliable. That will be the end of their case and without a defence (and absent any procedural mess-up or irregularity) the court would convict. They would have no reason to have any doubts (reasonable or otherwise) surrounding the calibration certificate because it would not be necessary for it to be produced as part of the prosecution case.

    The defendant then raises the unreliability of the device in his defence. The onus is on him to prove (on "the balance of probabilities", not beyond reasonable doubt) that the device cannot be relied upon to prove the speed limit or it was broken or defective and that may include lack of recent or proper calibration. The prosecution is given the opportunity to rebut the defendant's defence, probably by bringing their own expert evidence.

    That is why this OP's husband must be particularly careful. All the prosecution has to prove is that it was an approved device operated in the approved manner. Any challenge to its reliability must be made out by the defendant and "casting doubt" will not cut the mustard. He cannot say "this could have happened" or "that might have happened". He has to prove that it did happen in his particular case. It may well be true, as you said earlier, that the CPS might discontinue if they learn of deficient calibration but that should not be relied upon as a strategy, especially as by that time the opportunity for a course or fixed penalty (if appropriate) is lost.

    Without a valid certificate CPS will discontinue. If you know as much as you claim you will have seen similar things happen, I have.
  • SHAFT
    SHAFT Posts: 565 Forumite
    edited 23 October 2019 at 6:54AM
    Mercdriver wrote: »
    One word - pepipoo.

    As far as what SHAFT says, the advice from pepipoo is to not rely on a policeman - current or former - for legal advice.

    Legally, an approved device is considered satisfactory unless it can be proved otherwise. Failure would be very very expensive.

    Without calibration it isn't approved.

    But you're advising to go onto pepipoo and take advice from the ex police members one of whom is a mod?
  • Car_54
    Car_54 Posts: 8,178
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    SHAFT wrote: »
    Without calibration it isn't approved.

    There is no mention of calibration in the Type Approval documents.
  • Devices are calibrated for a reason - to ensure they are accurate. If the device hasn't been calibrated how can the prosecution prove that the device was accurate?

    Pepipoo is your friend here but personally I would be contacting the said Police Force and asking if there is a current calibration certificate. If not I would definitely consider pleading not guilty and asking for the evidence of the calibration.

    Most likely is that the website hasn't been updated with the current calibration certificate.
  • TonyMMM
    TonyMMM Posts: 3,376
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    The myth of calibration certificates continues to be spread ....... could be a very expensive day out if taken to court just on that basis.
  • Mercdriver
    Mercdriver Posts: 3,898
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    SHAFT wrote: »
    Without calibration it isn't approved.

    But you're advising to go onto pepipoo and take advice from the ex police members one of whom is a mod?

    One of them is a specialist motoring solicitor TonyMMM who has replied here.

    Calibration is a red herring. The defendant would have to prove that the device wasn't working properly, NOT that it hadn't been calibrated.

    Are you offering to offset the OP's very expensive costs if he follows your advice?

    I thought not.

    What a brave keyboard warrior, Constable.
  • Mercdriver
    Mercdriver Posts: 3,898
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    In all seriousness, OP, if your OH is considering opposing this, even though he might qualify for either safety course or fixed penalty, take advice from a specialist solicitor (expensive) who will be able to call on specialist experts (very expensive). But be prepared to face the CPS with their (very expensive) experts.

    Don't follow the route of the guy from Bristol who spent tens of thousands avoiding a £100 fine. Especially based on the advice of someone who has been banned from this forum several times. How many alter egos is it now, Andy? Be honest, rather than report, we all know who you are, Andy.
  • SHAFT
    SHAFT Posts: 565 Forumite
    Mercdriver wrote: »
    One of them is a specialist motoring solicitor TonyMMM who has replied here.

    Calibration is a red herring. The defendant would have to prove that the device wasn't working properly, NOT that it hadn't been calibrated.

    Are you offering to offset the OP's very expensive costs if he follows your advice?

    I thought not.

    What a brave keyboard warrior, Constable.

    You obviously know more about the CPS so I'll leave it with you.
  • No problem OP, you get your current husband to contest this. During which time, he will lose his place on the course, if offered or the fixed three points. Obviously he does not want this.


    Mind you, having just recently been done at 34 mph! and attending a course, my licence remains clean! Though one guy turned up, thinking he only had to register and walked out. He is now up in front of the beak and is expected to get 6 points and a bigger fine!


    But alas, you know the camera was out of calibration? No problem? Just that when the summons to the beak arrives, they gaps will had been filled in and their case more or less water tight!


    As a side note, when my letter for the course arrived, they had spelled my name wrong! When I registered at the course, it had been corrected!
  • If the device hasn't been calibrated how can the prosecution prove that the device was accurate?

    They don't have to, as I have explained. The defendant has to prove that it was not accurate and whilst the lack of a valid calibration certificate might help, it does not do that by itself. As mentioned above, the lack of a valid calibration certificate does not jeopardise the claim that the device is type approved and operated in the approved manner. If you think about it, a device is deemed perfectly accurate and reliable on the day its certificate expires but the following day it cannot be relied upon for no other reason than it has not been calibrated for 366 days. That is a ludicrous submission which would gain no ground in any court.

    Unless anything fresh is raised I'm out now because I've said all I need to. All I can say to JulieD (the OP) is this: do not be fooled by anyone here (or anywhere else) into believing that the lack of a valid calibration certificate is a "Get out of Jail Free" card. It is a bar-room myth. Do not lead your husband to believe that if there is no such certificate all he has to do is turn up in court and say "There was no valid calibration certificate so there must be doubt as to the accuracy of the device". It will not work. The CPS may discontinue a prosecution if they find out there is no valid calibration. I would not rely on it and I doubt that they will anyway because there is no legal basis for them to do so. They will have all the evidence they need to support a conviction and can easily rebut the argument that the device is unreliable if that argument is based solely on the lack of a valid certificate. More than that since calibration certificates do not form a routine item of evidence they may not even find out that there is no valid certificate until your husband enters his Not Guilty plea and outlines the basis of his defence. If they decide to continue, by that time the option of out of court disposals will be lost and he will even lose part of his discount for an early guilty plea if he is convicted.

    If you doubt my advice, as suggested seek guidance elsewhere. Despite the warnings, Pepipoo is a good place to start or you could seek a solicitor who will provide a free initial consultation (though it would be wise to use a specialist motoring solicitor).
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