Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • MSE Martin
    • By MSE Martin 29th Nov 08, 6:12 PM
    • 8,116Posts
    • 42,310Thanks
    MSE Martin
    An Open Letter To Mortgage Brokers.
    • #1
    • 29th Nov 08, 6:12 PM
    An Open Letter To Mortgage Brokers. 29th Nov 08 at 6:12 PM
    Dear Mortgage Brokers.

    It's come to my attention recently that there are a small number of brokers out there who see me as a figure of hate, in fact I've even had some brokers anonymously contact me to request I end my life.

    Of course thankfully there are many brokers who understand the work I do, and support it, and contribute to helping consumers on this site. Yet I'm concerned about the damage the minority may cause the majority.

    What I find most bizarre about this is I've spent my entire career being a supporter of the mortgage broker industry. I've lost count of the number of people who've approached me in the street and said "I got a great mortgage deal, by going to a broker as you suggested." or "I didn't go to my bank this time, I used a whole of market broker, because I wrote it down when you said to on the TV".

    Therefore to be attacked by a small segment of the broker industry seems strange. The banking sector, claims handlers, secured lenders... I'd be less surprised by, but the one advice sector I actively support and postively push people to go to?

    Cherry

    The focus of the venom seems to centre around the forums of a small website called Cherry, which even apparently has a board dedicated to me. I did once read what it said, yet many of the comments got so ridiculous, and libellous, it became no longer worth my time or energy to do so.

    One of the main problems with Cherry is that someone posts an inaccurate comment about what I've said, and then people wind each other up. Yet the info is usually completely erroneous.

    I suspect some of it is to do with the fact I turned down an invite to discuss things with brokers on the site.

    To be honest I get about 300 requests a week for similar things, and most, many much bigger institutions don't take umbridge when I turn them down. Yet as I said in my reply, I'm happy to engage with brokers here on this site which reaches many more people and, I suspect, brokers (and I hope this thread goes some way to do that). Though I'm not sure that was ever actually communicated.

    My view on brokers.

    So let me yet again, clarify my view on brokers. For the many years I've been doing this, whenever talking, broadcasting or writing about mortgages my constant push has been to say use a "whole of market" mortgage broker (well since the term came in anyway) to get you the best deal.

    Of course as this is MoneySavingExpert my agenda will be to do it fee-free if you can; though in recent tough times I've actually shifted my stance slightly as more brokers charge in tough times to be much less rigid on that push as getting good advice should be the primary focus.

    To those brokers who've made their minds up that I'm anti-broker based on what they've heard. Why not read what I actually say in the full guide to mortgage advice and judge the stance for yourself? The opening sets the scene pretty well...

    "Don’t trust bank or building societies' mortgage advice; they’ll just flog you a mortgage from their own limited range. Use this broker plus technique to get free advice on the best deal and possibly grab cashback too.

    First use a whole of market broker to find the right mortgage and use its clout to help you get accepted. Plus, as sadly some lenders have stopped brokers accessing their products due to the credit crunch, to ensure you get the very best deal, you now need to check some specific lenders yourself."

    Sadly in recent times the growth of direct deals has meant I've added a second stage of suggesting people check out the FSA's website AFTER going to a broker to check there are no deals being missed, then going back to the broker to discuss it - which enables the broker to weigh up the pros and cons of all deals with their client.

    While I know for brokers' pockets, it would be better if I didnt mention this, I'm sure all reasonable brokers will understand that my prime concern is to provide consumers with all the info and therefore this is something I need to do.

    However I know at the moment the lack of mortgage business coupled with direct deals is hurting mortgage brokers a lot and I suspect this is one of the reasons why anything that isn't a complete "just use a broker" comment may upset some in an industry that's been hit by poor economic time.

    For me lenders withdrawing deals from the broker market so they're only available direct is a retrograde step, and anti-consumer, something I've written about before here, and even broadcast about the issue on prime time ITV.

    What about cashback mortgage brokers?

    I know there's been some comment about the fact that I include the few cashback brokers in my guide. First of all I feel it's entirely appropriate to let people know about this option, that's what I do in all subjects.

    However the frustration and the hatred I've read about some of this, I suspect comes mostly from people who've never actually read what I say. This is from the guide and the font sizes used here are as in the article.

    "Yet remember this is ONLY for the very money savvy, who know and can identify exactly the right mortgage for themselves. Do remember...

    ...for most people, a broker’s weight on your side for 100,000s worth of mortgage transaction’s worth more than a few hundred quid cashback."

    In earlier incarnations of the guide (now quite a long time ago) I did include the option that people could go to a broker, get the info and then process it through one of these sites. [/b]

    After polite representation and legit argument from some brokers on this site, I changed my stance on that, as I agreed with the points made. It now says...

    "The more loophole savvy of you may have worked out that you could of course go to a fees-free broker (or even a fee broker as long as the fee isn’t paid until transaction), then process its recommendation via a cashback site. This is a balance of ethics and practicality."

    "By doing this you have taken the broker's time but not allowed it to be recompensed for the advice by gaining a fee. Overall, it's likely you'll want to stick with the broker who gave you the best advice, but the option to cut the cost is always there."

    And remember this is after an explanation of why keeping an advisory broker working through the process is worthwhile as the support is needed.

    I consider this to be a totally reasonable inclusion in the guide. Though it's something I don't think I've ever mentioned on TV or radio as in the much shorter time I'm given it's not worth prioritising.

    It's worth noting that our (admittedly very rough) figures show very substantially less than 0.1% of readers of the guide actually click through even to bother to look at the cashback sites.

    Should I change my stance?

    If I did, it would be to not suggest people use brokers. I don't believe that's appropriate, though sometimes after some of the venom, I get tempted for a second or two. I will continue to support the broker sector.

    I don't know what impact I've had on the market place, but as much of the complaints are that I'm too influential, if that's true, there will be many 100,000s who've gone to brokers because I've said to.

    Someone not qualified shouldn't talk about mortgages.

    This is one of the complaints I find, frankly, risible. To suggest only mortgage brokers can write or talk about mortgages is bizarre. It would seem that mortgages should thus never be on TV, radio, web or in newspapers in that case.

    Of course I'm not a qualified mortgage broker. My entire stance is that I write NOT as part of the finance industry. I am a journalist (a qualified one at that) and that's my work.

    Yet there is a difference between talking about the issues happening, the trends and extolling people to act (rather than how to act) and telling people what to do. I have an enormous mailbag, many thousands of emails a week, and concern over the mortgage is one of them.

    So while I think it's well worth while warning people to "check they're not overpaying" and that "pundits predict the end of cheap fixed" and explain how mortgages work. I ALWAYS refer people to mortgage brokers to look at someone's specific situation. This is the great contradiction.

    Brokers are doing themselves no favours.

    Having said all that, I want to make it plain that some of the nasty attacks that I've seen recently, do the broker industry no credit and I would hate the behaviour of a few to discredit that of the many.

    I am also saddened at the very few number of brokers who've come here, to make unfounded derogatory comments, in all areas, and risk ruining the work this site does to help many people.

    Many of these bring the broker industry in to disrepute and sully the reputation, the last thing that is needed at the moment. In one thread where a mortgage broker tried to discourage others from helping people here, (s)he was roundly lambasted by members of the pubic and sadly was another bad notch.

    Again I suspect that's because the premise started by saying this site recommends people to go it alone or through comparison services - which actually is the opposite of what I write. The shame for me is these comments are made based on such erroneous statement; I don't understand why they're written.

    To conclude. I intend to continue to do what I do. To continue to suggest people use whole of market brokers. And to continue to ignore some of the ill-founded and ignorant comments I've read, but respond and react to those trying to make constructive points that will help consumers.

    It is my hope that this open letter clears the air, and (yet again) clarifies my stance. It's my hope that most reasonable brokers will see we're all on the same side in helping consumers get the best deal.

    Kind regards

    Martin Lewis

    PS Please feel free to link to this thread from other arenas that brokers will see.

    PPS This is a first draft and needs some proofing which I will come back and do later. I will also respond to any further points raised in this rather than below.


    1st Update. 11.30am Mon 1 Dec 2008

    Thank you for all the feedback. I just wanted to make clear that the vast majority of brokers on this forum have always been polite and helpful. In fact when I redrafted the latest version of my mortgage broker guide I came here for feedback before it was published and there were many helpful tweaks because of the brokers.

    Now to answer specific questions.

    "First you advised people to fix, now you're advising people to ditch their fix"

    This seems to be something many brokers who seem to have come from the Cherry site are saying. I find this confusing, as I've never a. Advised anyone. b. Written people should fix. c. Written they shouldn't fix.

    This is one of those "please actually read what I wrote, or listen to what I said rather than what you've been told I said, scenarios."

    A. Advice. This site doesn't give advice, it gives information. It never mentions specific mortgages and always directs people TO MORTGAGE BROKERs.
    B. Telling people to fix. The nearest this site has got is to say "if you're going to fix imminently, fixed rates are rising so act quickly" that's not the same as saying FIX your mortgage. It's an urge to sort it soon - again DIRECTED TO A BROKER and never about a specific product.
    C. Ditch your fix. Again I certainly thing that'd be wrong for the vast majority of people. Yet it's what everyone's asking, so I produced a checklist and told people in the rare circumstances where it may add up - to GO TO A BROKER. You can read exactly what was published here (top left of this). But here are a few highlights...

    i. It was titled "Fixed mortgage? Can you ditch & switch to a low rate deal?" note the question marks.
    ii. Then having explained that some on variable rates would gain it says "Ditch your fix checklist! By definition, those on fixed-rates haven’t gained. Many are asking whether ditching & switching, even with a penalty, will save you cash. Here's the checklist:"
    iii. Then after the checklist it says "How to find out: If the checklist makes a ditch, switch & save look possible, contact a whole of market broker to do some detailed comparison numbers, incl. switching fees. Most reputable brokers won’t charge you unless you actually end up getting a new deal through them."

    I'm not quite sure how anyone can see that as a call to ditch your fix... but there we go.
    Last edited by Former MSE Andrea; 02-12-2008 at 10:53 AM.
    Martin Lewis, Money Saving Expert.
    Please note, answers don't constitute financial advice, it is based on generalised journalistic research. Always ensure any decision is made with regards to your own individual circumstance.

    Don't miss out on urgent MoneySaving, get my weekly e-mail at www.moneysavingexpert.com/tips.

    Debt-Free Wannabee Official Nerd Club: (Honorary) Members number 000
Page 2
  • Chez Guevara
    I'm a mortgage broker - and I think the key word in that for me has always been 'broker'. By that, I mean I'm a rate slut.

    I have always prided myself on getting the best deal for clients, and in that sense this website is very much in line with that ethos. And if someone can get a better rate by going direct to a bank or building society, then the best advice is to go direct. Likewise, if someone is coming up to the end of a mortgage deal, and the fees etc don't really make a remortgage worth doing - then the best advice is to stay where you are.

    I think that most brokers are the same, or at least I hope they are. That is one of the reasons why I personally am struggling so much in this Credit Crunch. I've lost count of the number of times I've had to say 'Stay where you are' to clients, having put in the work to research the best deals available for them. My bread and butter 'remortgage' work, saving clients money at the end of their deals has died on its !!!! this year. There are still some people I can help, but not as many.

    But if you live by the sword, you die by it too. You can't tell everyone to use you when you have the best rates, and then tell everyone to still use you when you don't.

    However, there are still many circumstances when using a broker is the best option - just keep an eye on the fees.

    One word as to qualified / unqualified - I think Martin is doing a tremendous job in what he's doing. However, the difference is that if I give advice and it backfires - clients can put in a complaint to me, followed by the FSA / Financial Ombudsman. So in a sense they are protected to some degree against 'bad' advice. If a reader acts on advice by a journalist, they're on their own if it all goes wrong!

    I think therefore the message to everyone (which I'm sure Martin would agree) is DO YOUR RESEARCH. It never fails to surprise me how many of my clients trust me blindly with whatever I tell them - fortunately, I have never (and will never) abuse that trust, even if it means my business hitting the wall. But the temptation must be there for some brokers, in dire financial straits, with lower morals than me!
    • dunstonh
    • By dunstonh 30th Nov 08, 6:49 PM
    • 98,579 Posts
    • 67,061 Thanks
    dunstonh
    The actions of these idiots is unforgivable and they show an immaturity and stupidity which really does give concern for people that are meant to be professional.

    There are certain issues with the way Martin presents some bits of information which leave a bit to be desired and it can be frustrating to those that are regulated and authorised as they cannot get away with that sort of thing. So, they see it as a double standard. However, that has always been the case. I remember it happening back in the 80s and 90s with the printed media. The Daily Mail being one of the worst offenders. The only difference now is that Martin isnt "printed", he's everywhere

    I have seen the Cherry site and read some of the posts there and quite frankly some of the posts and comments that get put there are disgraceful and what you would expect in a primary school playground.

    What is a shame though is that Martin does comment in this open letter on this forum where the mortgage brokers, advisers etc never rarely make any such comments. Disagree with issues maybe but never in the way Martin highlights. I do hope those reading this thread do not interpret Matin's comments to reflect the "FSA authorised" posters here
    Last edited by dunstonh; 30-11-2008 at 7:34 PM.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA). Comments are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from an Independent Financial Adviser local to you.
  • Chez Guevara
    Ah yes. I was an IFA back in the day - remember all the journalists saying that you were an IDIOT not to invest all your money into technology funds, particularly the one run by Aberdeen?

    The amount of people that lost pretty much all their money in that fund was frightening. And of course, as the journalists were unregulated, there was absolutely no come back whatsoever.

    I had 85 year-old investors, looking to put their life savings into those funds. And they were ANGRY when I said it really didn't meet their risk profile. I'm just glad I stuck to my guns and told them if they really wanted to do it, I didn't want my name on it... Saved me an awful lot of complaints!
  • lethal0r
    After all, it's such a p*ss easy job, and you make a least £3000 commission per case by stitching the client up :rolleyes:
    Originally posted by koexelek
    I never said it was an easy job. My point is that you can become a mortgage broker in a few months, with a little extra knowledge and that a broker is not some sort of mortgage sage who can offer a level of advice unparalled by non-brokers, as some on here seem to think.

    Martin always qualifies the advice he offers and always says speak to a broker as well!
    • koexelek
    • By koexelek 30th Nov 08, 9:03 PM
    • 7,648 Posts
    • 16,202 Thanks
    koexelek
    I never said it was an easy job. My point is that you can become a mortgage broker in a few months, with a little extra knowledge and that a broker is not some sort of mortgage sage who can offer a level of advice unparalled by non-brokers, as some on here seem to think.

    Martin always qualifies the advice he offers and always says speak to a broker as well!
    Originally posted by lethal0r
    I've been doing it 20 odd years, and am still learning. The lenders are constantly moving the goalposts.

    Yes, if you want to find the best five year fixed rate at 30% loan to value for a squeaky clean client who wants to borrow 2 times annual income, you probably can do it yourself.....
    .....but the sort of people I come across often have overtime their employer won't guarantee, might be on a probation period, might be on a fixed term contract, might have a buy to let property in the backgrround, might not have permanent rights to remain in the UK, might want to do a shared ownership/ key work scheme , might want to borrow on a high rise flat, might want to buy a house with an agricultural restriction, might want to complete on a purchase before their sale goes through, might have missed a few payments on their credit card, might not have up to date audited accounts by a chartered accountant, might need someone to act as a guarantor, might be doing a council house right to buy, might be doing a self build mortgage, might be a expatriate buying an investment property in the uk ... etc etc etc

    You need more than a maths o level and a calculator to sort those out
    I am a Mortgage adviser
    You should note that this site doesn't check my status as a Mortgage Adviser, so you need to take my word for it. This signature is here as I follow MSE's Mortgage Adviser Code of Conduct. Any posts on here are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as financial advice.
    • HelpWhereIcan
    • By HelpWhereIcan 30th Nov 08, 9:13 PM
    • 1,228 Posts
    • 1,282 Thanks
    HelpWhereIcan
    The actions of these idiots is unforgivable and they show an immaturity and stupidity which really does give concern for people that are meant to be professional.

    There are certain issues with the way Martin presents some bits of information which leave a bit to be desired and it can be frustrating to those that are regulated and authorised as they cannot get away with that sort of thing. So, they see it as a double standard. However, that has always been the case. I remember it happening back in the 80s and 90s with the printed media. The Daily Mail being one of the worst offenders. The only difference now is that Martin isnt "printed", he's everywhere

    I have seen the Cherry site and read some of the posts there and quite frankly some of the posts and comments that get put there are disgraceful and what you would expect in a primary school playground.

    What is a shame though is that Martin does comment in this open letter on this forum where the mortgage brokers, advisers etc never rarely make any such comments. Disagree with issues maybe but never in the way Martin highlights. I do hope those reading this thread do not interpret Matin's comments to reflect the "FSA authorised" posters here
    Originally posted by dunstonh
    It makes me laugh when I look at some of the posts re Martin on Cherry.

    Quite obviously people who do not take the time to visit here, actually read the guides that upset them and see what all the fuss is about themselves.

    I have been a lurker there for a long time and even thought about joining their 'Cherry Find' service which aims to generate mortgage enquiries for members but was finally put off by the pathetic and continued attempts to do Martin down by the owners of the site.

    The fact that they will appeal to the lowest common demoninator in the industry just to get members/subscribers shows that they don't have the sense they were born with let alone the ability to successfully promote the interests of mortgage brokers to the wider public.

    If you can't recognise that the posters here reflect what a lot of people think and that Martin has always been openly supportive of brokers (albeit not in the way or to the extent they think he should) you can't expect to reach out to the Great British Public and compete with Martin and other journalists for their hearts and minds.

    Not to mention their email of 26/11/08 to the FSA about unregulated individuals giving advice which is obviously aimed at Martin although it does not mention his name. They claim to have a problem with all journalists who give unregulated advice but do not see fit to dedicate a forum to Paul Lewis or any other high profile financial journalist.

    Shame as there are some knowledgeable and reasonable people who post there. As usual it is spoiled by a small bunch of morons who are struggling for business and looking to blame anyone but themselves for their problems.
    I am an IFA (and boss o' t'swings idst)
    You should note that this site doesn't check my status as an IFA, so you need to take my word for it. This signature is here as I follow MSE's Mortgage Adviser Code of Conduct. Any posts on here are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as financial advice.
    • HelpWhereIcan
    • By HelpWhereIcan 30th Nov 08, 9:20 PM
    • 1,228 Posts
    • 1,282 Thanks
    HelpWhereIcan
    From the email from the 26/11/08 that I refer to in my post above


    Dear FSA
    Please be CERTAIN there is nothing else you could or should be doing to protect consumers from 'unauthorised' financial advice. There 'may' be real dangers to consumers that are not being addressed. It is our desire to do as much as possible to ensure that appropriate protection is in place and that potential industry damage is avoided.

    We recognise that sometimes, posts made on the cherry Forum are not as 'constructively put' as they might be - especially given the nature of the forum. However, it is our firm belief that often, the underlying issues are important - hence we respectfully request that you consider the following.

    Maybe we at cherry and / or some of our concerned members don't fully understand all the issues here but perhaps you could clarify.....

    Is it the case that you are unable to protect consumers from anyone who is not specifically authorised by the FSA?

    AND.... if so, do the rules regarding who needs to be authorised need to be reviewed?

    AND.... is some form of separate 'limited authority' category appropriate / already in existence?

    AND.... is the matter under consideration as part of the RDR?

    As can be seen by the following posts made recently by intermediaries on the cherry Forum, concern exists about unqualified people apparently giving 'advice' to consumers relating to financial matters.

    Despite the 'disclaimer' many feel that consumers are still at risk and we are all keen to ensure that as much as possible is done to protect consumers.

    Post -
    ''The FSA have to do something about this man. I think he has done this to try to cover his own back because he was telling people to fix their rates a little while ago...and I can't believe he is yet again telling people to go to brokers and use their expertise for free...so await a load of waste of time leads yet again....''

    Post - ''Someone made a good point re how many in the bad fixed rates DIY'd it? Or DIY'd it after listening to XXXXXX?

    "Please note, answers don't constitute financial advice, it is based on generalised journalistic research. Always ensure any decision is made with regards to your own individual circumstance."

    This is his tagline from his "wisdom" postings, what a load of nonsense''

    As you can see it is a well written, fluid argument that as a broker I feel proud to think has been sent out purporting to be in my interests and reflective of my feelings.

    If that is how they correspond with the FSA, how on earth do they expect to make the issues clear to the public? :confused:
    I am an IFA (and boss o' t'swings idst)
    You should note that this site doesn't check my status as an IFA, so you need to take my word for it. This signature is here as I follow MSE's Mortgage Adviser Code of Conduct. Any posts on here are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as financial advice.
    • dunstonh
    • By dunstonh 30th Nov 08, 10:21 PM
    • 98,579 Posts
    • 67,061 Thanks
    dunstonh
    To be honest and frank and this will irritate some mortgage brokers, I have been concerned that there are too many low skilled, commission hungry, layabouts on the mortgage side that are damaging reputations that had been improving. IFAs have suffered with sales reps, salesforces and those joining from closed salesforces but failing to upskill. However, mortgage advisers have suffered with an influx of greedy idiots who dont care about the job. These people damage the reputation not only of other decent mortgage advisers, but all other adviser types as well as the public often cant tell the difference.

    I am not alone in this view other. I was at a recent meeting of company owners a home insurance provider was asked to talk to us. Apart from his presentation being totally inappropriate for our meeting, he made a big thing about double and treble commission being available. No-one in the room thought that was a good thing. His response was that mortgage advisers like it. The room's response back was mostly negative against mortgage advisers and some were quite rude about mortgage advisers.

    I had a life company rep visit a few months back about a new product. After letting me know the features, she went on to give the commission terms. I said I didnt care as it was the features and terms that mattered. Her response was that most IFAs said that but most mortgage advisers didnt want to know the features, just what the commission was.

    The good mortgage advisers really need to find a way to get a change of mindset in this "mindless" minority that are doing your profession no good at all. IFA company owners should do as well. Although maybe the FSA has decided to do it after announcing the end of indemnity commission on life products. That just leaves their attitude.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA). Comments are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from an Independent Financial Adviser local to you.
    • tomstickland
    • By tomstickland 30th Nov 08, 10:27 PM
    • 18,904 Posts
    • 15,428 Thanks
    tomstickland
    But you MUST be qualified AND regulated to offer "advice" on mortgages.

    Martin is neither.
    Originally posted by minimike2
    Anyone can give advice on mortgages if they want to. The man down the pub can give me advice. Whether I act on that advice is for me to decide.
    Happy chappy
    • karie
    • By karie 30th Nov 08, 11:03 PM
    • 461 Posts
    • 214 Thanks
    karie
    to be honest i lost faith in mortgage brokers when i went to one last summer who kept pushing a 5.49% 2-year fixed deal with a 599 fee, even though i insisted i was looking for a tracker.

    in the end i did some research myself and re-mortgaged with hsbc at 0.89% above BOE, no fees attached, and with hindsight that was by far the best thing i could have done.

    i'm sure there are many very good brokers, and indeed i find a lot of advice from brokers that i read on here to be very useful... so its a shame to be put off by one dishonest one who has not your best interests at heart, but thats the reality of it for many.
  • Tiddler
    The bloke down the pub doesn't appear on the TV & radio every week as a money saving expert though does he?

    I'll be honest here and say that I have never seen or heard Martin give mortgage advice.

    Most of the "advice" on the forum is given by the general public or brokers/advisers.

    I know that Martin has put together his guide on "Ditch the Fix" which has come in for some criticism, again to be honest this just encourages people to ask the question, and recommends speaking to a broker - if people decide to DIY it then they probably deserve what they get!
  • EdInvestor
    But you MUST be qualified AND regulated to offer "advice" on mortgages.

    Martin is neither.
    Originally posted by minimike2

    Martin doesn't offer "advice".:rolleyes: He offers journalistic information and opinion.
  • Chez Guevara
    I had a life company rep visit a few months back about a new product. After letting me know the features, she went on to give the commission terms. I said I didnt care as it was the features and terms that mattered. Her response was that most IFAs said that but most mortgage advisers didnt want to know the features, just what the commission was.
    Originally posted by dunstonh
    Can't speak for most mortgage advisers, but only for myself. The only reps that try that on with us are the ones who sell Accident, Sickness & Unemployment policies - and that's a throwback to the door-to-door sales techniques: "John at no 5 and Margaret over at 17 think this policy is great"

    It's the old 'are we salesmen or are we advisers' ploy. Whilst we work on a commission basis, it's hard to see where the lines are crossed. And then you talk about fees... but there's always someone willing to do it for 'commission only' or the banks saying 'we don't charge fees', which makes it an uneven playing ground. Don't know what the answer is, to be honest.
  • taxi73
    Death threats to Martin...there was no need for that and it just shows up the bad apples amongst the brokers.
    I have used a mortgage broker for my mortgage both for the original mortgage and the subsequent remortgages.He has always listened to what I require and come up with the best deals.I have never had to pay him any fees but if I needed to I would've done as he has always got me very good deals.I'm on a lifetime tracker now and will probably not need to use him again.He is worth his weight in gold.
    I feel sorry for the lack of business for the genunely good brokers but have no sympathy for the brokers that are out to sell customers mortgages that they don't really want just so they can make a larger commission.I have nothing but contempt for those that are treating Martin awfully.
    The recession isn't his fault...afterall a lot of brokers and banks pushed liar loans and it'sall coming back to bite people on the bum.
    The amounts the first mortgage broker was going to put through for me to borrow was terrifying on my income and would've been unaffordable.So I went to another broker (the honest one I've used ever since)....
    The honest ones on here that give there time are a great addition to the site vand I don't see why everybody can't work side by side.
    • minimike2
    • By minimike2 1st Dec 08, 8:16 AM
    • 2,092 Posts
    • 1,578 Thanks
    minimike2
    Martin doesn't offer "advice".:rolleyes: He offers journalistic information and opinion.
    Originally posted by EdInvestor

    And Im sure the millions of people who listen to him see it that way too. :rolleyes:
    • payless
    • By payless 1st Dec 08, 10:04 AM
    • 6,612 Posts
    • 2,361 Thanks
    payless
    To be honest and frank and this will irritate some mortgage brokers, I have been concerned that there are too many low skilled, commission hungry, layabouts on the mortgage side that are damaging reputations that had been improving. IFAs have suffered with sales reps, salesforces and those joining from closed salesforces but failing to upskill. However, mortgage advisers have suffered with an influx of greedy idiots who dont care about the job. These people damage the reputation not only of other decent mortgage advisers, but all other adviser types as well as the public often cant tell the difference.
    .
    Originally posted by dunstonh
    As mortgage broker unfortunately - I have to agree with the above , there are a wide boys in the industry - some employed ( or were before the crunch) by the "national salesforces" and others running there own business . I've been on seminars and roadshows , and the way I hear some brokers talk about how they treat their clients are dreadful.

    the big players though always make sure that there backs are covered.

    Perhaps its time RDR was introduced for mortgages - greater level of qualification , and products priced from providers without in-built commission ( therefore priced cheaper than direct ) but with the option for brokers to charge either direct or as a loading.

    lethal0r
    I never said it was an easy job. My point is that you can become a mortgage broker in a few months, with a little extra knowledge and that a broker is not some sort of mortgage sage who can offer a level of advice unparalled by non-brokers, as some on here seem to think.

    Martin always qualifies the advice he offers and always says speak to a broker as well!
    Takes years of experience to become a " mortgage sage" !... too many big brokers are happy to let new advisers just go through the motions on the end of a phone- although does not do too much harm in most cases ... but whether its ultimately the best is really unknown.
    Any posts on here are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as (financial) advice.
    • koexelek
    • By koexelek 1st Dec 08, 10:11 AM
    • 7,648 Posts
    • 16,202 Thanks
    koexelek
    As mortgage broker unfortunately - I have to agree with the above , there are a wide boys in the industry - some employed ( or were before the crunch) by the "national salesforces" and others running there own business . I've been on seminars and roadshows , and the way I hear some brokers talk about how they treat their clients are dreadful.

    .
    Originally posted by payless
    There seem to be two ways a broker can operate..

    1) Fleece the customer for as much as you can on a one hit basis, and hope they never catch up with you

    2) Treat the customer with the same level of care you would give to your own mortgage, always be 100% honest( even if it costs you money) and rely on their continued loyalty and referrals.

    I am firmly in the second category,but I know quite a few brokers in category one, who earn far more than I do.

    I can sleep at night though
    I am a Mortgage adviser
    You should note that this site doesn't check my status as a Mortgage Adviser, so you need to take my word for it. This signature is here as I follow MSE's Mortgage Adviser Code of Conduct. Any posts on here are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as financial advice.
    • dunstonh
    • By dunstonh 1st Dec 08, 10:46 AM
    • 98,579 Posts
    • 67,061 Thanks
    dunstonh
    The RDR should be extended to mortgage advice. After all, the RDR is about raising standards and why should mortgage advisers be exempt from that. However, part of it is indirectly with the removal of indemnity commission. Many of these wide boys rely on that and it will probably see the end of some of them as they wont want to stick out the 4 years or so to get paid.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA). Comments are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from an Independent Financial Adviser local to you.
  • Leighthal
    Martin,can you Sue?
    In an Acapulco hotel:
    The manager has personally passed all the water served here.
    • MSE Martin
    • By MSE Martin 1st Dec 08, 12:27 PM
    • 8,116 Posts
    • 42,310 Thanks
    MSE Martin
    Just to say I've updated the first post to answer some questions.
    Martin Lewis, Money Saving Expert.
    Please note, answers don't constitute financial advice, it is based on generalised journalistic research. Always ensure any decision is made with regards to your own individual circumstance.

    Don't miss out on urgent MoneySaving, get my weekly e-mail at www.moneysavingexpert.com/tips.

    Debt-Free Wannabee Official Nerd Club: (Honorary) Members number 000
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

2,559Posts Today

8,897Users online

Martin's Twitter