CGT on 2nd property.

13

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  • 00ec25
    00ec25 Posts: 9,123 Forumite
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    POPPYOSCAR wrote: »
    So the fact that it was owned for 30 years lived in for 9 rented for 15 leaving 6 years bears no relevance to the calculations?
    because the gain is so large and the ownership period so long the letting relief is going to hit the £40k cap so in essence the 6 years will not impact the letting relief

    the only way they would make a difference would be if the 6 years were a lived in period and thus could be added to your private residence relief which, as you know, is not subject to a cap. However, I assume you moved out to a new main residence after 9 years and the occupation of the new main residence is a matter of historic fact so you cannot now say the 6 years were main occupation of the old property as a main residence since it wasn't true.
  • POPPYOSCAR
    POPPYOSCAR Posts: 14,897 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post
    00ec25 wrote: »
    because the gain is so large and the ownership period so long the letting relief is going to hit the £40k cap so in essence the 6 years will not impact the letting relief

    the only way they would make a difference would be if the 6 years were a lived in period and thus could be added to your private residence relief which, as you know, is not subject to a cap. However, I assume you moved out to a new main residence after 9 years and the occupation of the new main residence is a matter of historic fact so you cannot now say the 6 years were main occupation of the old property as a main residence since it wasn't true.

    Yes I know.

    I just wondered why the question was asked about the other six years and wondered if it was relevant to the calculations which obviously it is not.

    Yes the new house was moved into and the other one was not selling so it was decided to do it up and rent it out until the market picked up.

    There is no intention to do that hence the calculation based on actual years lived there.
  • POPPYOSCAR
    POPPYOSCAR Posts: 14,897 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post
    Thank you everyone for your replies, I am very grateful.

    I have another question.

    If say a third of the property is gifted ,not sold i.e. Value of £200,000 this would rise to a gain of £130,000 and the calculation would be made the same using this figure instead.?
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0 Newbie
    First Anniversary Photogenic Name Dropper First Post
    edited 14 September 2017 at 10:08PM
    POPPYOSCAR wrote: »
    Thank you everyone for your replies, I am very grateful.

    I have another question.

    If say a third of the property is gifted ,not sold i.e. Value of £200,000 this would rise to a gain of £130,000 and the calculation would be made the same using this figure instead.?

    Presumably to a relative and ,therefore, a connected person. The 'gift' would be treated as at full market value - no difference made to your sums. However I am not following your new figures!

    Earlier I had assumed that the letting period was reduced by the six empty years when it clearly wasn't and it is still fifteen. I hope I didn't confuse you too much!
  • 00ec25
    00ec25 Posts: 9,123 Forumite
    Combo Breaker First Post
    POPPYOSCAR wrote: »
    I just wondered why the question was asked about the other six years and wondered if it was relevant to the calculations which obviously it is not.
    if the six years is the sum of the time between the first letting and the last letting when it was not actually tenanted, but was, nonetheless, for those periods being marketed for let, then that can be counted as part of the letting period. However, as per the earlier calculations all that does is raise the letting period to 15/30ths and therefore the 40k cap still takes precedence.

    if the 6 years were periods when it was not being marketed for let, and thus was genuinely a "second home", ie capable of being lived in by you but not your main residence at the time then that period is purely liable for CGT with either PPR or LR obviously

    if some (all?) of the 6 years was periods when it remained your main home but you were absent from it for temporary reasons then some (3 year max) can be added to the PPR period under the absence rules. Alternatively if the reason for your absence was you were living elsewhere for work related purposes in work provided accommodation then of course those rules would kick in and the PPR period would also be increased.

    hence the query about the "6 years"
    POPPYOSCAR wrote: »
    There is no intention to do that hence the calculation based on actual years lived there.
    in reality it should be done in months or days, not in years
  • POPPYOSCAR
    POPPYOSCAR Posts: 14,897 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post
    edited 22 January at 3:51PM
    [quote=[Deleted User];73127032]Presumably to a relative and ,therefore, a connected person. The 'gift' would be treated as at full market value - no difference made to your sums. However I am not following your new figures!

    Earlier I had assumed that the letting period was reduced by the six empty years when it clearly wasn't and it is still fifteen. I hope I didn't confuse you too much![/QUOTE]

    Yes to a daughter.

    I am taking one third of the full market value i.e. £200,000 .less amount paid £70,000 should it be 1/3 of the price paid as well?

    Are you saying the CGT would be based on the market value of £600,000 even though 2/3 are still being retained?
  • 00ec25
    00ec25 Posts: 9,123 Forumite
    Combo Breaker First Post
    edited 15 September 2017 at 3:35PM
    POPPYOSCAR wrote: »
    Yes to a daughter.

    I am taking one third of the full market value i.e. £200,000 .less amount paid £70,000 should it be 1/3 of the price paid as well?

    Are you saying the CGT would be based on the market value of £600,000 even though 2/3 are still being retained?
    CGT obviously applies to the share being disposed of, so if that is 1/3, then the market value is 600,00 x 1/3 = 200k

    the market value applies only on the acquisition or disposal from/to a connected person, so assuming your original purchase was not from a connected person then your purchase price is what you paid x the share % being sold obviously, which appears to be 70k x 1/3 giving you a gross gain of £176,669
  • jimmo
    jimmo Posts: 2,281 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Post First Anniversary
    Assuming your daughter is not a minor, if the idea is to gift a third to her and you will all then jointly sell the property that sounds suspiciously like Asset Splitting, Fragmentation or a combination of both.
    It can, no doubt, be done but requires careful planning and timing HMRC are well aware of such tactics.
    https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/capital-gains-manual/cg18150p
    The usual plan is to make the gift in one tax year and sell in the next.
    In that way, if successful, the current joint owners would each benefit from the annual tax free amount and use of any available basic rate band and do the same in the following year.
    The third, new, owner would only gain a similar benefit if the property value increased between the date of gift and date of sale. If you decide to do this you should really expect a hard time from HMRC and leave your daughter's share of the proceeds in her control.
  • POPPYOSCAR
    POPPYOSCAR Posts: 14,897 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post
    jimmo wrote: »
    Assuming your daughter is not a minor, if the idea is to gift a third to her and you will all then jointly sell the property that sounds suspiciously like Asset Splitting, Fragmentation or a combination of both.
    It can, no doubt, be done but requires careful planning and timing HMRC are well aware of such tactics.
    https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/capital-gains-manual/cg18150p
    The usual plan is to make the gift in one tax year and sell in the next.
    In that way, if successful, the current joint owners would each benefit from the annual tax free amount and use of any available basic rate band and do the same in the following year.
    The third, new, owner would only gain a similar benefit if the property value increased between the date of gift and date of sale. If you decide to do this you should really expect a hard time from HMRC and leave your daughter's share of the proceeds in her control.

    No that is not the idea.

    Selling now is an option but daughter lives there and would like to stay there if possible.
  • POPPYOSCAR
    POPPYOSCAR Posts: 14,897 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post
    The sale of the property is now going ahead.

    If we complete by say end of november am I right in thinking that the CGT will not have to declared until the tax return 17-18 and paid when that return is due i.e. end January 2019?
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