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  • sourcrates
    sourcrates Posts: 28,878 Ambassador
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    edited 11 November 2017 at 1:58PM
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    AndyPix wrote: »
    ^^ Couple of things there ...


    Of course it makes a difference if the person named on the writ lives there as that is who they are charged with collecting the debt from.
    Think about that - what if a bailiff turned up at my door with a writ in the name of the previous occupant .. Does that mean they are entitled to take my stuff - of course it doesnt.

    Actually it does, unless you have proof of your identity.


    And also your point 1 .. That is only true unless they are high court bailiffs (sherrifs) . They can use "necessary reasonable" force to gain entry.

    High court enforcement agents cannot force entry to residential premises except if they are chasing court fines or certain other debts.
    I’m a Forum Ambassador and I support the Forum Team on the Debt free wannabe, Credit file and ratings, and Bankruptcy and living with it boards. If you need any help on these boards, do let me know. Please note that Ambassadors are not moderators. Any posts you spot in breach of the Forum Rules should be reported via the report button, or by emailing forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com. All views are my own and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.For free non-judgemental debt advice, contact either Stepchange, National Debtline, or CitizensAdviceBureaux.Link to SOA Calculator- https://www.stoozing.com/soa.php The "provit letter" is here-https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/2607247/letter-when-you-know-nothing-about-about-the-debt-aka-prove-it-letter
  • cjmillsnun
    cjmillsnun Posts: 615 Forumite
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    This was for CT arrears according to the OP.
    2.88 kWp System, SE Facing, 30 Degree Pitch, 12 x 240W Conergy Panels, Samil Solar River Inverter, Havant, Hampshire. Installed July 2012, acquired by me on purchase of house in August 2017
  • CIS
    CIS Posts: 12,260 Forumite
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    nic_c wrote: »
    Unpaid council tax tends to be high court rather than magistrates court. Not paying council tax has more implications than not paying a catalogue or phone bill when it comes to enforcement orders

    The High Court (or the County Court) have no say in the collection of council tax arrears (except where an application is made for bankruptcy, charging order or judicial review). Council Tax, although a civil debt, is dealt with by a magistrates' court.

    The magistrates' court only has involvement as far as issuing the liability order and dealing with committal cases. Other than that (and the little bits dealt with by a High/County Court) the courts have no involvement and all powers are delegated to the local authority. The enforcement agents used are not court officers and have no connection with the any of the courts - they are private, certificated, companies and individuals contracted by the council under the relevant delegated powers.
    I no longer work in Council Tax Recovery but instead work as a specialist Council Tax paralegal assisting landlords and Council Tax payers with council tax disputes and valuation tribunals. My views are my own reading of the law and you should always check with the local authority in question.
  • System
    System Posts: 178,094 Community Admin
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    sourcrates wrote: »
    Three Golden rules when dealing with bailiffs :

    (1) Do NOT let them in.

    You are not obliged to let anyone into your home, so don't.

    If they have a High Court Writ granting them entry you are breaking the law by preventing them from entering.
  • sourcrates
    sourcrates Posts: 28,878 Ambassador
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    edited 11 November 2017 at 5:59PM
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    Tarambor wrote: »
    If they have a High Court Writ granting them entry you are breaking the law by preventing them from entering.

    Bailiffs are only allowed to force their way into your home to collect unpaid criminal fines, Income Tax or Stamp Duty, and then only as a last resort.

    https://www.gov.uk/your-rights-bailiffs

    A high court writ authorizing entry would only be made under those circumstances, and never for personal debt related matters.
    I’m a Forum Ambassador and I support the Forum Team on the Debt free wannabe, Credit file and ratings, and Bankruptcy and living with it boards. If you need any help on these boards, do let me know. Please note that Ambassadors are not moderators. Any posts you spot in breach of the Forum Rules should be reported via the report button, or by emailing forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com. All views are my own and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.For free non-judgemental debt advice, contact either Stepchange, National Debtline, or CitizensAdviceBureaux.Link to SOA Calculator- https://www.stoozing.com/soa.php The "provit letter" is here-https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/2607247/letter-when-you-know-nothing-about-about-the-debt-aka-prove-it-letter
  • fatbelly
    fatbelly Posts: 20,494 Forumite
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    CitizensAdvice have just refreshed their bailiff advice section here

    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/debt-and-money/action-your-creditor-can-take/bailiffs/
  • System
    System Posts: 178,094 Community Admin
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    From that page:

    They aren't allowed to break down your door - they have to use 'reasonable force'. This means they'll have to come back with a locksmith who will unlock the door.

    So they're getting in whether you let them or not, they're just not allowed to break the door down but they can get someone to drill out the lock.
  • fatbelly
    fatbelly Posts: 20,494 Forumite
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    Tarambor wrote: »
    From that page:

    They aren't allowed to break down your door - they have to use 'reasonable force'. This means they'll have to come back with a locksmith who will unlock the door.

    So they're getting in whether you let them or not, they're just not allowed to break the door down but they can get someone to drill out the lock.

    I posted that to try to stop the confusion!

    The paragraph above the one you quote says
    Check if the bailiff can force entry

    The bailiff could have the right to force entry to your home or business if they’re collecting:
    •unpaid magistrates court fines, for example if you were given a fine for not paying your TV licence
    •tax debts for HM Revenue and Customs, for example if you owe income tax

    and below the one you quote:
    If your client has been told bailiffs will come back with a locksmith

    The bailiff is only allowed to do this if the type of debt they're collecting gives them the right to force entry using 'reasonable force'.

    In this case, the op has been told it is a council tax debt. It is neither a criminal fine in the magistrates court, nor an HMRC tax debt.

    The bailiff has no right to force entry, as Sourcrates said. Neither is it High Court, as CIS correctly points out (not that that would change anything)
  • Herbie21
    Herbie21 Posts: 562 Forumite
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    fatbelly wrote: »
    CitizensAdvice have just refreshed their bailiff advice section here

    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/debt-and-money/action-your-creditor-can-take/bailiffs/

    I am really surprised that an organisation such as the Citizens Advice would be misleading the public into thinking that debtors who have children can in any way be considered 'vulnerable' !!!

    I am also surprised to read that a person over 65 would be considered 'vulnerable' because 'their age make it hard for them to deal with bailiffs'.
    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/debt-and-money/action-your-creditor-can-take/bailiffs/how-bailiffs-should-treat-you/how-bailiffs-should-treat-you-if-youre-vulnerable/

    Check if bailiffs should treat you as vulnerable

    You can be vulnerable in lots of different situations, for example if:

    you’re disabled

    you’re seriously ill

    you have mental health problems

    you have children or are pregnant - especially if you’re a single parent

    your age makes it hard for you to deal with bailiffs - usually if you’re under 18 or over 65

    you don’t speak or read English well
  • CIS
    CIS Posts: 12,260 Forumite
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    Herbie21 wrote: »
    I am really surprised that an organisation such as the Citizens Advice would be misleading the public into thinking that debtors who have children can in any way be considered 'vulnerable' !!!

    I am also surprised to read that a person over 65 would be considered 'vulnerable' because 'their age make it hard for them to deal with bailiffs'.

    Over the years I've had numerous discussions with CAB and Welfare Rights as to what is vulnerable and over exactly these sorts of issues. As you point out, the phrase itself is being used as far too generic a definition.

    Many (although not all) of the CAB staff I used to deal with in the local offices believed that their definitions and their idea of reasonable income/expenditures had to be absolute - they weren't so happy when it was pointed out that it was no more than their view point and not a legal requirement.
    I no longer work in Council Tax Recovery but instead work as a specialist Council Tax paralegal assisting landlords and Council Tax payers with council tax disputes and valuation tribunals. My views are my own reading of the law and you should always check with the local authority in question.
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