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  • FIRST POST
    • myself321
    • By myself321 27th Sep 07, 10:05 PM
    • 398Posts
    • 26Thanks
    myself321
    halogen heater query
    • #1
    • 27th Sep 07, 10:05 PM
    halogen heater query 27th Sep 07 at 10:05 PM
    hi there

    are halogen heaters economic i am looking at one that has 3 bars with 350w per bar ?
Page 3
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 19th Jan 13, 2:15 PM
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    • 13,841 Thanks
    Cardew
    Interesting point.

    I've wondered how design factors into the equation too. I accept that in theory a 2kw oil-convection heater will cost the same to run as a 2kw halogen heater. However there are differences. For example I have two 2kw oil-convection heaters. They are different brands and different designs. I'm sure that one heats the room quicker than the other.

    I assume design does have an impact on their efficiency. For example, a newer style single radiator with fins throws out more heat than a old-style single radiator which doesn't have fins.
    Originally posted by ilikecookies
    You mustn't confuse efficiency with effectiveness.

    Both of your 2kW heaters will produce exactly the same amount of heat from the electrical energy they consume; so are both 100% efficient.

    However it is perfectly possible that one heater(with the fins) dissipates heat better than the other and thus is more effective at producing heat initially.

    However assuming that they have both consumed, say, 1kWh, then after power is switched off, the heater without fins will remain warmer, and thus still dissipating heat after the other heater is cold.

    The point being that they both will have produced the same amount of heat for the 1kWh consumed.

    A more graphic comparison would be a fan convector heater which produces almost instant heat, but no residual heat; and compare this with a oil filled radiator that is slower to produce heat(as the oil is being warmed) but has residual heat.

    Again for 1kWh consumed both produce exactly the same amount of heat.
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 19th Jan 13, 2:19 PM
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    Cardew
    Correct, but there is a whole electromagnetic spectrum of energy.
    Originally posted by RobbieJ
    Sorry but that is bluster!

    You should know(now) your earlier post is completely incorrect.
  • RobbieJ
    Sorry but that is bluster!
    Originally posted by Cardew
    That doesn't answer the point made but, instead, postures a bit like a Catherine Tate "whatever"...

    An electric fan heater will use electricity to drive the fan, so that means less for the heating element - obvious really - other heaters do not have that overhead.

    Your original assertion is a good approximation, but strictly incorrect. However, there is no point in talking to a person who doesn't want to listen.
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 19th Jan 13, 7:14 PM
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    Cardew
    That doesn't answer the point made but, instead, postures a bit like a Catherine Tate "whatever"...

    An electric fan heater will use electricity to drive the fan, so that means less for the heating element - obvious really - other heaters do not have that overhead.

    Your original assertion is a good approximation, but strictly incorrect. However, there is no point in talking to a person who doesn't want to listen.
    Originally posted by RobbieJ
    So you have re-invented physics with your assertion of an overhead!

    You are absolutely incorrect!

    A 1kW fan heater with a fan using, say, 20 watts and 980watts for the heating element will consume 1kW and produce exactly the same amount of heat as any other 1kW heater.


    What happens to the energy used to rotate the fan? Some will be used to overcome the friction in the bearings (generating heat here), and some will be used to move air, and when the air slows down due to its viscosity, the energy again gets turned into heat which warms the air. Add it all up, and you'll find the amount of heat created by a heater exactly matches the energy input into it. (That applies not only to heaters, but all electrical devices - they all produce heat equal to the energy consumed, but hopefully do something useful before the heat release).


    I really wish you wouldn't come on MSE and post something totally incorrect and then feel you have to defend that nonsense.

    I ask again, bearing in mind you cannot detroy energy, where according to your theory of an overhead has that energy to turn the fan gone, if not heat?
  • RobbieJ
    Cardew, you may understanding the principle, but, to be precise, you misunderstand or cannot comprehend the practical issues that necessary follow on from the principle.

    Energy is conserved i.e. it cannot be destroyed, but energy only has a heat equivalent, it can and does exist in many different forms. Therefore, the electricity used by any heater has a heat equivalent, but different electrical heaters have different electromagnetic spectrum output profiles. You seem unable to grasp this practical consideration and conveniently avoid to answer this point.

    If a heater generates light as well as heat, then the energy output is identical to one that consumes the same amount of electricity, but only generates heat - but their output energy spectrum profiles will be different.

    The second will however, in everyday practical terms, be more efficient at heating a room. The first uses some of its electrical energy input to generate light, some of which will leave the room via the windows. Certainly, a very, very, very small percentage of energy will leave the room in this form before it converts to heat, but nevertheless, that very, very, very small percentage does exist.

    HappyMJ's "the light you see hits a surface and then the light energy converts into heat" will occur outside the room, thus the design of the heater makes it less efficient at heating the room - even given the fact that energy is conserved.

    An electrical fan heater will similarly conserve energy, but the output energy will have a different output profile to a heater that does not incorporate a fan.

    As I originally said, your statement is a good approximation, indeed it may be a very good approximation, but strictly speaking (when talking about the efficiency of heaters to heat a room) it is incorrect.

    Before quoting from lay posters elsewhere without giving attribution (which may be a breach of copyright if your quote eminates from a source external to this website), just think for a moment on how the different electromagnetic profiles of different heaters effects their ability to heat a room. Unfortunately, a grasp of the laws of physics does not necessarily give you a grasp of practical issues in the everyday world about us as you appear to believe.

    If you want the last word, then sure post ahead - with insults and insinuations if you feel so incline. However, this really is my last word on the topic as there is no point in becoming part of a protracted slanging match which, given you past posting record here, you seem to delight in.

    Oh, and before you start posting snippets in bold type, such as in this example, note: The educated mind can be persuaded by logic, the uneducated mind gravitates towards volume.
    Last edited by RobbieJ; 20-01-2013 at 1:47 PM.
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 20th Jan 13, 8:09 PM
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    • 13,841 Thanks
    Cardew
    More bluster!
  • Fargo
    This is all very interesting to those who progressed further than O level physics but for us lesser mortals who are interested in the pros and cons of halogen heaters possibly not. I live in an old, cavity wall free, single glazed house and think it may be cheaper to use a halogen heater, for instance when sitting in front of a computer, than putting the gas central heating on. There are too many radiators to fiddle about turning them all on and off all the time so some are on all the time. What do those with more knowledge than myself think. Ps the light generated is irrelevant, I have a lamp.
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 14th Feb 13, 10:26 PM
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    Cardew
    This is all very interesting to those who progressed further than O level physics but for us lesser mortals who are interested in the pros and cons of halogen heaters possibly not. I live in an old, cavity wall free, single glazed house and think it may be cheaper to use a halogen heater, for instance when sitting in front of a computer, than putting the gas central heating on. There are too many radiators to fiddle about turning them all on and off all the time so some are on all the time. What do those with more knowledge than myself think. Ps the light generated is irrelevant, I have a lamp.
    Originally posted by Fargo
    Welcome to the forum.

    It would be more convenient using any form of electrical heater for the situation you describe, rather than putting on the CH and having to turn off radiators.

    If you don't want to switch off the radiators round the house, then an electrical heater would be cheaper. I have a fan heater in my study for just that purpose; the CH goes off at 10pm and I can switch the fan heater on after that if needed.

    In fact a halogen heater would be better than a fan heater in that it 'beams' heat toward someone sitting at a computer and there is no need to warm the whole room.

    The point we have been making is that all electrical heaters give out exactly the same amount of heat, for the same running cost.
    • luv_my_brass
    • By luv_my_brass 26th Mar 13, 6:15 PM
    • 245 Posts
    • 29 Thanks
    luv_my_brass
    This is all very interesting to those who progressed further than O level physics but for us lesser mortals who are interested in the pros and cons of halogen heaters possibly not. I live in an old, cavity wall free, single glazed house and think it may be cheaper to use a halogen heater, for instance when sitting in front of a computer, than putting the gas central heating on. There are too many radiators to fiddle about turning them all on and off all the time so some are on all the time. What do those with more knowledge than myself think. Ps the light generated is irrelevant, I have a lamp.
    Originally posted by Fargo
    I have been reading this discussion with interest because this (BiB) is my situation and looking for direct heat, also my GCH radiatiors don't seem to give enough heat around the house until it's almost bed time I get out my trusty old SuperSer (bought it 2nd hand 25 years ago) in the cold months for additional/direct heat, but thinking about replacing it with a newer model. I also have a halogen heater in the loft, which was banished there when I suspected that it was expensive to run.
    After reading this thread, and weighing up the heating costs, it would appear that calor gas is the most expensive to run. So I am now feeling reluctant to spend money on a newer model. Would I be better off getting out the oscillating halogen heater out of the loft and getting rid of the SuperSer altogether. The heater and 2 gas bottles do take up a lot of space when not required. But then again, if there was an electricity cut, it would prove very useful - decisions, decisions
    if i had known then what i know now
    • slim25
    • By slim25 18th Dec 13, 8:30 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    slim25
    Hello all.
    I was reading this as I am looking into heating my garage/ workshop.
    Is it cheaper to use a gas heater 4.2KW( the portable butane canister type at 33 for 15kg) or an electric halogen heater 1200W from my mains.
    From what I read a butane gas heater would be better but if possible could someone with a greater knowledge let me know.
    Thank you
    Ps Ive noticed that they do a 3KW halogen heater for around 200.
    I presume the 4.2KW gas heater gives out 3.5 times more heat that the 1200w halogen so would i need to get a 3-4 kw halogen to give out the same amount of heat or does it not work like that????
    Last edited by slim25; 18-12-2013 at 8:53 PM.
  • jonsox
    Heater efficiency / effectiveness
    Hello,
    New to the forum and have read the discussions on heaters with interest. I do have to say at the outset that I do agree with Robbie's statement that because a heater ( or any other electrical appliance) is labelled, say, 1 KW it does mean that it consumes 1KW of electricity but does NOT mean that it uses all of this energy to, in the case of a heater, produce heat or in the case of a light bulb to produce light. Ever tried to change a light bulb ( tungsten element type ) before it has cooled down!
    Ergo different types of heater will use the energy in different ways and will not convert all of the energy into heat, some will do it better than others but none will be 100% efficient.
    One only has to take the example of LED lamps where a 4 watt LED lamp will produce as much light as a 50watt tungsten lamp and produce very little heat i.e. most of the energy is converted into light. whereas in a tungsten lamp an awful lot is wasted in heat.
    Thus a halogen heater, conversely, must waste some of the energy as light. and a fan heater will use some to drive the fan motor.
    So if you want maximum heat a black radiant element is more efficient in producing heat than one that lights the room up, and if light is required then a cool LED lamp will be far more efficient than a tungsten or halogen lamp which both get very hot.
    Hope that helps?
    jonsox
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 20th Dec 13, 4:33 PM
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    • 13,841 Thanks
    Cardew
    Hello,
    New to the forum and have read the discussions on heaters with interest. I do have to say at the outset that I do agree with Robbie's statement that because a heater ( or any other electrical appliance) is labelled, say, 1 KW it does mean that it consumes 1KW of electricity but does NOT mean that it uses all of this energy to, in the case of a heater, produce heat or in the case of a light bulb to produce light. Ever tried to change a light bulb ( tungsten element type ) before it has cooled down!
    Ergo different types of heater will use the energy in different ways and will not convert all of the energy into heat, some will do it better than others but none will be 100% efficient.
    One only has to take the example of LED lamps where a 4 watt LED lamp will produce as much light as a 50watt tungsten lamp and produce very little heat i.e. most of the energy is converted into light. whereas in a tungsten lamp an awful lot is wasted in heat.
    Thus a halogen heater, conversely, must waste some of the energy as light. and a fan heater will use some to drive the fan motor.
    So if you want maximum heat a black radiant element is more efficient in producing heat than one that lights the room up, and if light is required then a cool LED lamp will be far more efficient than a tungsten or halogen lamp which both get very hot.
    Hope that helps?
    jonsox
    Originally posted by jonsox

    Welcome to the forum.


    Of course different types of electrical equipment are used for different purposes - who said differently?


    What we(or rather Albert Einstein) have stated is you cannot destroy energy. If you use, say 1kWh, you will (eventually) produce the same amount of heat.


    So you have concluded that a 4 watt LED light produces less heat that a 50 watt tungsten lamp! With respect, that is hardly earth-shattering.


    We can deduce from that conclusion that LED lamps are more efficient at producing light - which is the reason why we use them.


    However put 250 x 4 watt LED, or 20 x 50 watt tungsten lamps, or a single 1kW electrical heater in a room and they all will draw 1kW and produce EXACTLY the same amount of heat.


    I am afraid you are confusing effectiveness with efficiency!


    It would appear your contention is that if we take a 1kW fan heater, where the fan motor draws, say, 30 watts it is only 97% efficient and will only produce 97% of the heat of a heater without a fan? If it had a huge 100 watt fan it would only be 90% efficient etc etc. Is that really what you are saying?


    If we take a 1kW searchlight(which were used in the war) put it in a room and switch it on, as it emits only light then how efficient as a heater would you say that would be?


    Bear in mind you have already told us that a 50 watt tungsten lamp produces a lot of heat(and light) so using your principle stated above(i.e. 'thus a halogen heater, conversely, must waste some of the energy as light') how efficient is that at heating the room?
    • retiredin2011
    • By retiredin2011 20th Dec 13, 5:21 PM
    • 388 Posts
    • 134 Thanks
    retiredin2011
    4 watt LED lamp will produce as much light as a 50watt tungsten lamp and produce very little heat
    I just purchased a 7 watt LED lamp and I was trying it out in various rooms.

    It gets hot. So hot I almost dropped it when I took it out of the ceiling light fitting.

    That is why they have a large finned heat sink on them.
    Last edited by retiredin2011; 20-12-2013 at 5:27 PM.
  • drobe
    I replaced a 100 watt halogen lamp with a LED lamp and have had to put a small heater in my room to replace the lost heat from the halogen lamp.
    • andydiysaver
    • By andydiysaver 22nd Dec 13, 12:46 PM
    • 412 Posts
    • 166 Thanks
    andydiysaver
    I did the bathroom out with a 1250 watt halogen, expensive some may say


    but it's on well under an hour a day - it heads locally and the other option is heat the rest of my very large house just so I can face going into the shower


    I reckon its horses for courses really - you gotta tailor your solutions to what helps you spend net the least money - and for me that's a water stopping membrane then a stack of fibre glass in the loft above the bathroom, a halogen for showers, and localised heating via radiators for rest of living area.


    everyone on here who has said leccy heaters cost a lot are correct, but the good news is the standard is universal - it's the wattage, that's all that counts. If for example you got a 400w convection heater or a 1200w convection heater and a timeswitch that stuck on the 1200 w for 20 mins every hour you'd be the same.


    my advice, insulate. Don't type on here with frozen fingers.
  • woollymoore
    arghh!!! these pub physicists are doing my head in. Yes Einstien showed energy cannot be lost but their is more than heat energy to take into an account. Take into account also light, chemical, and sound ( just because you cant hear it doesnt mean it doesnt exist ) so the origanal question was is the hallogen heater more effiecient then an old bar electric. old bar electric uses up chemical ( the smell you get off them is ozone ) heat ,light and sound the same for hallogen but it is more effiecient at producing heat for the amount of electrical energy used. it has been said before only usefull for small direct heat and not for heating rooms. Bottom line wear more jumpers ( only joking )
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 21st Oct 14, 10:59 AM
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    • 13,841 Thanks
    Cardew
    arghh!!! these pub physicists are doing my head in. Yes Einstien showed energy cannot be lost but their is more than heat energy to take into an account. Take into account also light, chemical, and sound ( just because you cant hear it doesnt mean it doesnt exist ) so the origanal question was is the hallogen heater more effiecient then an old bar electric. old bar electric uses up chemical ( the smell you get off them is ozone ) heat ,light and sound the same for hallogen but it is more effiecient at producing heat for the amount of electrical energy used. it has been said before only usefull for small direct heat and not for heating rooms. Bottom line wear more jumpers ( only joking )
    Originally posted by woollymoore

    So presumably you are better qualified than a pub physicist?


    If so explain what happens to efficiency when a heater produces light(as long as that light doesn't escape the room)


    A question for you. Put an old anti-aircraft searchlight into a room without windows. If it uses, say, 1kWh, what is its efficiency in producing heat compared to a purpose made electrical heater?
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 21st Oct 14, 12:51 PM
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    Cardew
    Has anyone else noticed that there are so many first time posters who join MSE simply to defend a certain type of electrical heater - halogen in this case.
  • Robwiz
    Has anyone else noticed that there are so many first time posters who join MSE simply to defend a certain type of electrical heater - halogen in this case.
    Originally posted by Cardew
    It makes a change from the shilling of ludicrously expensive German radiant heater panels!

    Halogen heaters do have some virtues for personal heating, so it could be worse!
    • tommie1shunt
    • By tommie1shunt 21st Oct 14, 2:26 PM
    • 327 Posts
    • 165 Thanks
    tommie1shunt
    I did start reading this post with great interest, by the time I got to the end I could not care less, some of you want to get out more........
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