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  • FIRST POST
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 6th Jan 11, 7:18 PM
    • 1,357Posts
    • 748Thanks
    lovesgshp
    Ground Source Heat Pumps
    • #1
    • 6th Jan 11, 7:18 PM
    Ground Source Heat Pumps 6th Jan 11 at 7:18 PM
    If anyone wants info on these, then please let me know, as have had one for over 5 years.
Page 54
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 8th Sep 18, 7:45 PM
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    lovesgshp
    Might need some help understanding how the heat demand is managed. As I mentioned I have connected up OpenHAB to monitor the HP and with my heat store as a buffer us an external radiator circulation pump (G1). Up to now only Hot Water required but last night heating was called for when the outside temp dropped below 10C. The Radiator Return Target Temp (T1) was 13.4 whilst the Return Temp measured 20.3C when the circulation pump started. The pump stopped when the rad return dropped to 38C when the target was 14.8C.
    Am I misunderstanding what the rad return target is doing, I thought if the Rad return was above the target there would be no heating requirement?
    Originally posted by johnoldhouse

    Is the sensor connected to the return flow line? From how you are explaining it seems to be on the heating outflow instead.
    As Manuel says in Fawlty Towers: " I Know Nothing"
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 8th Sep 18, 10:37 PM
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    lovesgshp
    Just another thought johnoldhouse. Can you give me the readings from GT1 to GT 11 in heating mode only after approx 10 minutes of operation.
    As Manuel says in Fawlty Towers: " I Know Nothing"
    • JHen
    • By JHen 9th Sep 18, 9:29 AM
    • 40 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    JHen
    After filling this up with water on Friday it has dropped by 4" today so there is about 3" left - do i just keep topping this up with water?
    There is another red tank with a pressure gauge and when running (hot ware mode) it reads 1bar.

    What happens if this runs out ? Where is it going ?
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 9th Sep 18, 10:31 AM
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    lovesgshp
    JHen. Just keep topping it up at the moment. Presume you are doing that with the pump running.
    Check joints on collectors and inside the pump in case there is a leak. 1 bar is ok.
    As Manuel says in Fawlty Towers: " I Know Nothing"
    • JHen
    • By JHen 9th Sep 18, 11:00 AM
    • 40 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    JHen
    Cool. Last time I filled it it was not running. Is that an issue. How do I force it to run or is it a case of waiting ?
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 9th Sep 18, 11:31 AM
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    lovesgshp
    Go into the service menu and then manual operation of all functions. You can start the ground loop pump from that menu.
    As Manuel says in Fawlty Towers: " I Know Nothing"
    • johnoldhouse
    • By johnoldhouse 9th Sep 18, 3:04 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    johnoldhouse
    Readings etc
    I'll have to run force it into heating mode only this evening but the Hot water mode readings after 10 minutes of running last night were
    GT1 35.2
    GT2 14.6
    GT3 Target 42 Actual 43.2
    GT5 Target 18 Actual 24.5
    GT6 Normally about 70C
    GT8 46.8
    GT9 36.4
    GT10 8.5
    GT11 6.5


    Radiator Return Target was 10C which is what I would expect with curve slope =4 and -2.5 fine tune (not yet setup really just first guess).

    The Return radiator sensor GT1* (the * refers to the location referred to in the installation manual although it is a bit vague exactly where it should be) and in my case is on the radiator return back into the heat store.

    Last night I set the Summer Disconnect Temp to 16C (was 10C) and it appears that the radiator pump (G1) is controlled by this temperature and that the Radiator Return Target temp and the radiator actual return temp has no effect. Is that correct or is something amiss with the control system?

    The HP ran twice during the night to top up the hot water, which is shared with the heating circuit, and shut down when GT8 reached 52C and GT9 was 42.4

    I know I am using the system in rather a strange way but we don't use much hot water and are used to just using what is left over from the heating. I noticed from your previous postings that my GT10-GT11 difference is a bit low but I am using a fast lowing stream rather than a ground loop and wonder if this might make a difference. Checked the filter which was clean but of course I don't really know the state of the evaporator heat exchanger, might this need to be back flushed?
    Last edited by johnoldhouse; 09-09-2018 at 3:11 PM.
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 10th Sep 18, 8:00 PM
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    lovesgshp
    Hi again.
    GT1 is on the return flow as you say. Move it to within 50cms of the downpipe back into the pump, not into the heatstore.
    16C setting for cutoff is ok, but you may consider 18c as winter approaches. Are you operating with a internal room sensor as well? If so, what is that set at for influence?
    The operating figures seem fairly reasonable, although gt8/9 are close to limits. Gt10/11 are low, but this could be caused by the fact you are using a fast stream for the input, so low heat recharge. Maybe check the pump speed for that.
    Check the alarm menu in full as hopefully the previous owner did not know how to clear it and also the operating times and % use.
    As Manuel says in Fawlty Towers: " I Know Nothing"
    • johnoldhouse
    • By johnoldhouse 12th Sep 18, 5:30 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    johnoldhouse
    I have slowed the ground loop pump and now the delta is 3 degrees. Heat circuit pump is at highest setting. I have a heat meter on the output and it says the flow is 0.26 l/s so right on the lower limit. Will have to find out why as the piping to the heat store is not very long and that should be the only restriction.

    I think I understand what the control system is doing now. The radiator pump runs continuously and by doing so provides an average of the temperature in the house so that the HP can run when it drops below the target temperature based on the outdoor temp and curve selected. This is not very helpful for me as I am attempting to share the Hot water and buffer tanks functions to use off peak electricity and DHW being a low priority. If the radiator pump runs all the time I will always be dumping heat to the radiator even if not require.

    I found a manual for a newer IVT (Worcester) heat pump which shows the T1 sensor located in the buffer tank with four ports arranged the same way I have done it. This might work better and for now I am going to use this setup and use my old room thermostat to control the radiator pump. I think this should be OK as, as it gets colder the HP with increase the stored hot water temp available to the radiators. Bit of a hybrid control system but happy to give it a go.

    Checked running hours and they are 30400, 25% DHW, 44% DHW Extra Heat, not sure if this means its on its last legs? I think the HP was fitted in 2007 as this is the earliest error logged. I found a number of HTF under Temp messages in May 2015 which would confirm information I got that the reason the HP was taken out was the ground loop was crushed by tons of earth being delivered and owner gave up and had a oil boiler fitted.
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 12th Sep 18, 6:02 PM
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    lovesgshp
    Hi John.


    Yes, you are at the minimum flow rate.
    You can stop the heat circulating pump and only make it start with the compressor from the I/S menu.
    I have a copy of the full installation manual if yours does not cover everything and also a simulator for the Rego 600. (This is a exe file ).
    If you want to send me a PM with a email address I will send them to you.
    I would very much doubt the ground loops were crushed by tons of earth, as they tons put on them normally. Depending on what type they will usually be expected to last well beyond the heat pump life. The ones we use here are expected to have a life of about 100 years.
    Just a few other minor points:
    Have you insulated the input lines into the house?
    Check the electrical heater is set to maybe use only 3Kw of power as from the figures it looks like the pump is having to use that to boost the supply. As you are using a E11 tariff you could be causing excess operating costs.
    Last edited by lovesgshp; 12-09-2018 at 9:31 PM.
    As Manuel says in Fawlty Towers: " I Know Nothing"
    • ChapelBarn
    • By ChapelBarn 27th Oct 18, 10:15 AM
    • 7 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    ChapelBarn
    Greenline IVT GSHP
    I had a GSHP (2 x Greenline HT+ C11 (Three Phase)) installed by a plumber in 2009, which was then commissioned by Ice energy. We had Ice Energy back after a few months as we had some issues with the electricity consumption - following that everything seemed fine until May this year when we started getting intermittent LP and Superheat alarms. We had a company come out who diagnosed "oil restriction in the evaporator...and TEV (TEU?) not adjusting". This was rectified, but resulted in HTF Delta alarms - and so we they recommended further work to have the units stripped, flushed and inhibitor replaced and a magnetic filter adding to remove dirt. We had this done as a second visit.


    Since this work was completed we have now had even more alarms - HTF Delta, Electric Cassette and HP return - these are occurring on an almost daily basis. I think they generally re set automatically, with the exception of the Electric cassette which required manually re setting. So having spent a fair amount of money on two visits, I appear to be no better then when I started.



    Having contacted the company that did the work, they claim it is not their issue and the result of incorrect sizing of the internal pumps and incorrectly sized pipes, which is causing a restricted flow, both of which need replacing - with a caveat that this might (or might not) resolve the issue. I am also not sure why this was not evident as an issue in the previous 7 years.


    I am not really sure whether to go ahead with this and so would appreciate any guidance.
    • ChapelBarn
    • By ChapelBarn 27th Oct 18, 10:19 AM
    • 7 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    ChapelBarn
    Greenline IVT GSHP-Step controller
    I have two x GSHP installed along with a buffer tank and a step controller. I would appreciate some guidance on what is controlled on the Step Controller and what I can still control directly on the heat pump via the Customer and Service menus.


    From what I can see the Step Controller is used for the Slope, Fine Tuning and Indoor Heat Senor setting. Whilst I my Greenline IVT operating manual, I don't have anything that explains how this interacts with the Step Controller and which one takes precedent over the other.
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 27th Oct 18, 1:30 PM
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    lovesgshp
    Hi and welcome.
    Firstly, will you please give me GT1 to GT11 readings for both pumps during operation.
    High delta alarms could be due to a number of factors, so these can be worked through with a few tests.
    1) Check the filters are clean.
    2) Circulating pump speed may be too low.
    3) 3 way valve sticking.(you need to manually test this).
    4) Air lock in the system.


    These are the most common problems, so check these first,
    As Manuel says in Fawlty Towers: " I Know Nothing"
    • ChapelBarn
    • By ChapelBarn 29th Oct 18, 9:28 AM
    • 7 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    ChapelBarn
    Hello and thanks for the reply.


    I have checked the readings on each pump and they are as follows


    Pump 1


    GT1: now 49.1 (off 52.9)
    GT2: -27.5 (* see step controller note below)
    GT3: now 49.8 (target 50)
    GT4: not on menu
    GT5: not on menu
    GT6: 84.3
    GT8: 50.6
    GT9: 43.1
    GT10: 5.1
    GT11: 44.8




    Pump 2 (this is the one that experiences all of the alarms; it was in standby initially but then went into operation)


    GT1: 42.5
    GT2: -27.2
    GT3: now 54.7 (target 50)
    GT4: not on menu
    GT5: not on menu
    GT6: 63.3
    GT8: 59.5
    GT9: 53.1
    GT10: 12.8
    GT11: 35.6


    Note that I also have a step controller which has the following readings:


    Room Temp: 15.72
    Outside Temp 3.34 (this is correct, it is not -27.2 as noted at GT2)
    Rtn Temp: 40.88
    Target Return: 38.80




    Thanks also for the recommendations - some further questions about these



    1) Check the filters are clean.> The system has just been fully flushed and a new magnetic filter fitted just above the buffer tank. Is this the filter I should be cleaning? The C series has an external filter and so Ia m not 100% sure what I am looking for.

    2) Circulating pump speed may be too low.> From what I can see both pumps are set to maximum (in the full anti-clockwise setting)
    3) 3 way valve sticking.(you need to manually test this).> OK - I can see where this is on the pumps, how would I test it
    4) Air lock in the system.> Not sure how to diagnose or resolve this.


    Thanks again
    Patrick
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 30th Oct 18, 3:19 PM
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    • 748 Thanks
    lovesgshp
    Hi Again.


    Sorry for the late reply, but the storms here in Italy were knocking out the electricity supply.


    I am going to ignore the step controller for the moment and just give some observations on the other readings etc.


    1) You do have very large differences in the GT10/11 deltas. This could be due to faulty sensors. If you had HTF alarms, can you confirm if they are related to 10/11?


    2) You need to check the filter from the ground loop to the pump. It should be a valve with a large hexagonal nut to unscrew after the valve is closed to check the filter.


    3) As to your point re the normal filters, they should be above the heat pumps in a similar configuration to the above.


    4) Is your ground loop pressure around 0.5-1.00 bar when operating and heating pressure about 1.5 bar.


    5) To test the 3 way valves you need to go into the I/S menu and select manual operation of all, then scroll through that menu, till you get to 3way valve.


    6) Air locks: There will be a valve on the top of each internal hot water tank which you can unscrew to release the air, until just water comes out. As well there should be air release valves at the highest points in the system.


    Being blind as such on your system, I can only think of possible solutions, but hope these help.
    As Manuel says in Fawlty Towers: " I Know Nothing"
    • ChapelBarn
    • By ChapelBarn 31st Oct 18, 5:27 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    ChapelBarn
    Hi there - I saw the news about the storms in Italy, hope all now OK.


    Thanks for the reply - to answer the questions below





    1) You do have very large differences in the GT10/11 deltas. This could be due to faulty sensors. If you had HTF alarms, can you confirm if they are related to 10/11?


    Having reviewed the log on the affected pump (pump 2), all of the alarms over the past 3-4 days were High Return HP (GT9) alarms - looking at the timings they seem to be occurring pretty much every 30 minutes the pump is in active operation (during the day it reverts to Summer Mode as the weather is reasonably mild). This was not the case a week ago, when I was experiencing High HTF Delta and Electric Cassette - but I scrolled through 20 plus alarm logs and all were the same.



    The possible cause on the log for the GT9 alarm was listed as one of:



    - Hot Water Temp Too High: My DHW is set at 40 degrees - although I have lowered it recently, having previously been set to 45 and before that 50)

    - Radiator/UFH valves closed - checked and all are open
    - Heating Set too high - I have decreased the heat slope to 2 (from 3 and before that 4)
    - Flow of Heat Carrier is higher over heat pump than radiator - unfortunately my manual tells me to call Ice Energy if this happens



    The other pump seems fine when checking the logs.




    2) You need to check the filter from the ground loop to the pump. It should be a valve with a large hexagonal nut to unscrew after the valve is closed to check the filter.

    I opened this and it was clear


    3) As to your point re the normal filters, they should be above the heat pumps in a similar configuration to the above.


    Likewise - these were clear, as I'd expect as I had my system fully cleaned a month or so ago


    4) Is your ground loop pressure around 0.5-1.00 bar when operating and heating pressure about 1.5 bar.


    It is operating within this range - doesn't seem to vary significantly, but is generally in the 1 - 1.25 bar range.


    5) To test the 3 way valves you need to go into the I/S menu and select manual operation of all, then scroll through that menu, till you get to 3way valve.

    Still working on this - I have found the manual operational of all, not yet found the 3way valve setting on the I/S menu



    6) Air locks: There will be a valve on the top of each internal hot water tank which you can unscrew to release the air, until just water comes out. As well there should be air release valves at the highest points in the system.


    I opened the valves and water came straight out, so no air locks appear to be in the system.


    Thanks,
    Patrick
    • ChapelBarn
    • By ChapelBarn 31st Oct 18, 5:38 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    ChapelBarn
    One further thing that I have just noticed. Despite reducing the target DHW from 50, to 45 and now 40, the pump with all the alarms is showing the temperature of the water to be much higher - the GT3 setting was showing target 40, actual 58. This is consistent with the water coming out of my taps which I measured to be well above 40 degrees.
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 1st Nov 18, 7:35 AM
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    lovesgshp
    Hi Patrick.


    At the moment, this seems to be pointing to the 3 way valve, which is not uncommon.
    You need to be in I/S menu 5.3 and scroll through the options until you get to the 3 way valve. It is there I can assure you, as have just pulled it up on the simulator.
    As Manuel says in Fawlty Towers: " I Know Nothing"
    • ChapelBarn
    • By ChapelBarn 2nd Nov 18, 9:04 AM
    • 7 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    ChapelBarn
    Hi - yes I have now found the option. On both pumps the three way valve was not activated, I assume that I need to select "yes" to activate which I have done.


    I'll keep take a look at the readings and alarms later today after they have been running for a few hours.
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 2nd Nov 18, 1:33 PM
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    • 748 Thanks
    lovesgshp
    In that setting, you need to watch the movement on the valve. It could be a lever or a dial that will move.
    It is full movement you are looking for, so carry out the operation a few times.
    What I am thinking is that the valve is sticking between DHW and heating, which could cause the high DHW temp.
    As Manuel says in Fawlty Towers: " I Know Nothing"
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