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  • steviegee1982
    I had my electrician around last night doing a bit of work. he said he had seen a letter from Rointe about what the advertising standards people had said.

    Rointe claim that they didnt provide the proof of their energy savings as they didnt know who the ASA was and they wanted to protect their technology.

    Rointe are now saying that the tests prove that their heaters have 40% consumption and 60% non-consumption? I didnt really understand that bit but the electrician said that they had just put a big heater in a room that didnt need it. He actually said it was a crock of sh*t and he hadnt installed any since.

    Hopefully they'll get found out again but they get to confuse people for a bit longer I suppose - naughty, naughty.
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 28th Apr 11, 9:36 PM
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    Cardew
    I had my electrician around last night doing a bit of work. he said he had seen a letter from Rointe about what the advertising standards people had said.

    Rointe claim that they didnt provide the proof of their energy savings as they didnt know who the ASA was and they wanted to protect their technology.

    Rointe are now saying that the tests prove that their heaters have 40% consumption and 60% non-consumption? I didnt really understand that bit but the electrician said that they had just put a big heater in a room that didnt need it. He actually said it was a crock of sh*t and he hadnt installed any since.

    Hopefully they'll get found out again but they get to confuse people for a bit longer I suppose - naughty, naughty.
    Originally posted by steviegee1982
    That 40%/60% statement makes no sense.

    From what your electrician states, it might mean that if a room needed, say, 4kWh to maintain a temperature and you had some heaters with an maximum output of 10kW, it would only need 40% of that available power.

    However the bottom line is that if any heater uses 4kWh, they all give out the same heat and cost the same amount.
  • powerpoint
    hello i am new to the site and i believe that you should not knock new technology unless you ve tested it i have tested the rointe system against similar products and my findings were that the rointe system is 40% cheaper to run over a period of 24 hrs than any fan or oil heater i tried three different systems to keep a room at 21 deg over 24hrs and used a datalog and kw usage monitor and thats the results i came up with.

    and no i don t work or install these units and have no connection with rointe at all i work with heat pumps and air con which if your building or renovating a house i really need to look at these systems for their running costs.
    • andyrpsmith
    • By andyrpsmith 8th May 11, 8:50 PM
    • 131 Posts
    • 47 Thanks
    andyrpsmith
    powerpoint, please post your data/results so we can see.
    • Moneysava_wannaB
    • By Moneysava_wannaB 9th May 11, 12:34 AM
    • 390 Posts
    • 297 Thanks
    Moneysava_wannaB
    hello i am new to the site and i believe that you should not knock new technology unless you ve tested it i have tested the rointe system against similar products and my findings were that the rointe system is 40% cheaper to run over a period of 24 hrs than any fan or oil heater i tried three different systems to keep a room at 21 deg over 24hrs and used a datalog and kw usage monitor and thats the results i came up with.

    and no i don t work or install these units and have no connection with rointe at all i work with heat pumps and air con which if your building or renovating a house i really need to look at these systems for their running costs.
    Originally posted by powerpoint
  • powerpoint
    i will post my results and info as soon as i get back home working away at moment and as for talking rubbish the facts speak for themselves we have the same negative ignorant comments about heat pumps but they as efficient as the company says cop s upto 5-1
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 10th May 11, 10:09 PM
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    Cardew
    i will post my results and info as soon as i get back home working away at moment and as for talking rubbish the facts speak for themselves we have the same negative ignorant comments about heat pumps but they as efficient as the company says cop s upto 5-1
    Originally posted by powerpoint
    If you want to post data on Heat Pumps there are loads of threads where your input will be welcomed; and ridiculed if you try and say that heat pump systems will produce COPs of 5.(you need to read some of the EST tests)

    Looking forward to the data from your tests with Rointe heaters; mainly because if you maintain they give more heat output for the running costs - you are incorrect.
    • LittleVermin
    • By LittleVermin 6th Jun 11, 4:04 PM
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    LittleVermin
    Busy, busy!
    I would just like to say that I have Rointe radiators installed in my house ............
    Originally posted by scotmac1
    Hi scotmac1!

    I see no-one has welcomed you to MSE ... so WELCOME!

    I see that unlike some 'newbies' you are NOT a first-time poster on Rointe radiators. Oh no, you've posted on lots of threads (about buying properties in Italy and Spain, buying Euros, getting a mortgage, ...) starting at 1024 am TODAY then posting this at 3.28 pm. 9 posts in 5 hours and 4 minutes. At this rate you'll be a Money Saving Convert by the weekend and a Money Saving Stalwart by mid-summer! Wow!

    Anyway, good to hear that you are happy with your pricey Rointe radiators. Can you give us a link to some independent test reports, please? There are an awful lot of cynics on MSE who just don't believe the hype - well, the forum is not called Money Saving .. for nothing!
    Last edited by LittleVermin; 06-06-2011 at 4:16 PM.
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 6th Jun 11, 4:51 PM
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    • 13,842 Thanks
    Cardew
    I would just like to say that I have Rointe radiators installed in my house and I am very happy with them. I used to have panel heaters and the difference is considerable. The panel heaters were great if I was sitting in front or on top of them but otherwise took ages to heat the room. They also tended to heat the wall rather than the room whereas with the Rointe radiators I have heat all over the room.
    Storage heaters for me were not an option as I am out all day and did not see the sense in heating my house when I was not there.
    Originally posted by scotmac1
    For 100 outlay you can have 10 heaters from Argos that will produce 30kW.

    With that sort of output you can walk around in mid-winter in your swimming costume - or less.

    Just one problem - running cost!

    Now the Rointe heaters cost how much? Several hundred pounds for each oil filled radiator?

    There is one thing that can be stated with absolute certainty. That is that Rointe heaters produce no more warmth/heat than any other 10/20 heater for the same running cost.
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 7th Jun 11, 9:37 AM
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    • 13,842 Thanks
    Cardew
    Thanks Little Vermin, nice to feel welcome. I was told about this site by a friend who goes in every day for the competitions and freebies and I must admit it is a bit addictive.
    Regarding my heaters, I love them and don't mind paying for quality. My electrician did show me a report on tests they had done on these radiators before I bought and I was impressed as none of the other alternatives I looked at could give me any reports at all.
    Originally posted by scotmac1
    What sort of report were you shown? You can heat a room for xp per hour etc.

    You haven't said how much you paid for the heaters?

    Do you accept that they give out no more heat for the same running cost than a 10 heater from Argos?
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 7th Jun 11, 1:45 PM
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    Cardew
    The report he showed me was one that showed the running costs for the whole flat per month which the company provided based on the sizes of the room. I paid around 1,400 pounds for 5 radiators and a heated rail in the bathroom. I had panel heaters before and I have never had a 10 heater from Argos so can't comment on the heat generation or the running costs - can you please send me details of the running costs?
    Originally posted by scotmac1
    How can anyone send you running costs when we don't know the insulation standards, size of rooms, temperature required and for how long etc.

    All we can say with absolute certainty is that the heat given out by 10 heaters(or any electrical heater) is exactly the same as your Rointe heaters for the same running cost.
    • LittleVermin
    • By LittleVermin 7th Jun 11, 6:34 PM
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    • 680 Thanks
    LittleVermin
    I'm no electrical engineer but ....
    .............What other information will you need to give me an idea of running costs of a 10 fan heater as I am keen to find out?
    Originally posted by scotmac1
    I'm no electrical engineer but I'd say that for the same power (in watts) the cheapo fan heater would have the same running costs as a rather more expensive Rointe heater*. Wouldn't you?

    Both are converting electrical energy into thermal energy at 100% efficiency ... Magic isn't involved!


    *But Cardew has already made this point! (http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=44228064&postcount=55
    Apologies!
    Last edited by LittleVermin; 07-06-2011 at 7:14 PM. Reason: added ref to Cardew's post
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 7th Jun 11, 6:41 PM
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    Cardew
    Regarding running costs, I can advise that my lounge is roughly 28m2 with very good insulation, temperature required 20/21 or 22c for example and, say 10 hours of use. What other information will you need to give me an idea of running costs of a 10 fan heater as I am keen to find out?
    Originally posted by scotmac1
    You don't seem to understand what I have been saying.

    Any electrical heater has an efficiency of 100% - be it the oldest 1/2/3 bar fire, a fan heater, a panel heater, oil filled radiator or your Rointe heaters.

    So they will all give out exactly the same heat/warmth/BTu for the same running cost.

    So the heat/warmth/BTu you get from your Rointe heaters for say 1 is the same as you will get from any other electrical heater.
    • LittleVermin
    • By LittleVermin 7th Jun 11, 6:57 PM
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    LittleVermin
    Time to go back to the Advertising Standards Authority?
    Rointe's printed material was the subject of three complaints to the Advertising Standards Authority - all 3 complaints were upheld in an adjudication on 19th January which steviegee1982 and fb1969 told us about 4 months ago - here's the link again: http://www.asa.org.uk/ASA-action/Adjudications/2011/1/Rointe/TF_ADJ_49624.aspx

    BUT since March the ASA has been able to adjudicate on websites and on Rointe's website on this page http://www.rointe.co.uk/radiator-k-series.html I see a bold heading:

    K Series LOW CONSUMPTION DIGITAL ELECTRIC RADIATOR

    Down below there's this:


    In the K Series radiator test, made in an independent laboratory, we used a 1,430W model to simulate the heating of a 12 m2 room with the thermostat set to 21C. The average power needed during the test was 560W, which represents a 40% of the nominal power. That is what we define as the equivalent ratio of consumption, as you can see in the table above.


    The ASA asks a company being complained about to comment on the draft adjudication (I've been there - with a complaint!) and apparently Rointe didn't produce any reports, etc justifying their printed advert and brochure. Maybe they'll be more forthcoming with justification for their web material?

    Is this clever wording? i.e. a thermostatically controlled cheapo fan heater of the same poswer could give exactly the same results ... and be a LOW CONSUMPTION DIGITAL cheapo ELECTRIC RADIATOR?

    Maybe one of the electrical engineers on the forum would like to complain to the ASA, please?
    Last edited by LittleVermin; 07-06-2011 at 7:03 PM.
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 7th Jun 11, 8:15 PM
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    Cardew
    Apart from being meaningless - typical pseudo scientific advertising blurb designed to impress the layman - it isn't inaccurate.

    It apparently means that their 1,430W heater needs to be running for 40% of the time to produce the 560W heating load to maintain the temperature in that room at 21C. i.e 1.430 x 40% = 572W

    So for 10 hours heating it would use 5.60kWh.

    However that of course means that any other electrical heater(including a 10 heater from Argos) would also produce exactly the same heat/warmth for a consumption of 5.6kWh!!

    So IMO nothing in the advert that would interest the ASA.
    • LittleVermin
    • By LittleVermin 7th Jun 11, 9:06 PM
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    LittleVermin
    .............

    So IMO nothing in the advert that would interest the ASA.
    Originally posted by Cardew
    I thought you'd say that! The only thing that might interest them would be the misleading banner headline:

    LOW CONSUMPTION DIGITAL ELECTRIC RADIATOR -(my bold) implying Rointe heaters use less energy than other heaters.

    ************
    Interesting exchange on the electriciansforum http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/electrical-tools-products/16982-rointe-2.html

    ...Rointe heaters are nothing special and cost stupid money.

    Yes u may be right , but why are we complaining it's more work for us....

    I hope that comes up on Gxxgle! Choose your electrician with care!

    And there's a special deal for Rointe Official Installers coming up*. "Receive 100% of the installation costs immediately. Your clients have 60 months to pay"! So that's a contributory reason why a 330w K Series (LOW CONSUMPTION Rointe radiator) costs 251 while top of the range 1600w (LOW CONSUMPTION Rointe radiator) costs a mere 622.00.


    *http://www.rointe.co.uk/rointe-club.html
    • grahamc2003
    • By grahamc2003 7th Jun 11, 10:04 PM
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    grahamc2003
    I just wonder how much longer this blatant Rointe ripoff (due to their misleading sales literature) will continue for? I doubt it will be long before they see the light and move into selling solar panels.
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 7th Jun 11, 10:45 PM
    • 27,993 Posts
    • 13,842 Thanks
    Cardew
    I thought you'd say that! The only thing that might interest them would be the misleading banner headline:

    LOW CONSUMPTION DIGITAL ELECTRIC RADIATOR -(my bold) implying Rointe heaters use less energy than other heaters.

    ************
    Interesting exchange on the electriciansforum http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/electrical-tools-products/16982-rointe-2.html

    ...Rointe heaters are nothing special and cost stupid money.

    Yes u may be right , but why are we complaining it's more work for us....

    I hope that comes up on Gxxgle! Choose your electrician with care!

    And there's a special deal for Rointe Official Installers coming up*. "Receive 100% of the installation costs immediately. Your clients have 60 months to pay"! So that's a contributory reason why a 330w K Series (LOW CONSUMPTION Rointe radiator) costs 251 while top of the range 1600w (LOW CONSUMPTION Rointe radiator) costs a mere 622.00.


    *http://www.rointe.co.uk/rointe-club.html
    Originally posted by LittleVermin
    I obviously agree with your sentiments, but there is nothing illegal in calling a heater 'low' consumption.

    In fact a 330W heater has very low consumption, but of course low heat output.

    622 for a 1.6kW heater is just a stupid price. However people must buy them!!
    • LittleVermin
    • By LittleVermin 7th Jun 11, 11:28 PM
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    LittleVermin
    Misleading advertisement?
    I obviously agree with your sentiments, but there is nothing illegal in calling a heater 'low' consumption.
    .........
    Originally posted by Cardew
    from http://www.cap.org.uk/The-Codes/CAP-Code/CAP-Code-Item.aspx?q=CAP%20Code%20new_General%20Sections_03 %20Misleading%20advertising#c53 :

    03 Misleading advertising

    The ASA may take the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 into account when it adjudicates on complaints about marketing communications that are alleged to be misleading. See Appendix 1 for more information about those Regulations.


    The ASA will take into account the impression created by marketing communications as well as specific claims.
    It will adjudicate on the basis of the likely effect on consumers, not the marketer’s intentions.

    (my bold)

    And from the Advertising Code
    http://www.asa.org.uk/ASA-Action/Adjudications/Display-Code.aspx?CodeId={08D304FD-1571-4B6A-B084-4E8EDD3CDB01}&ItemId={81AC0EE0-83B5-4683-ACEC-A3FBE7F9CCC0}

    General
    • 3.1
      Marketing communications must not materially mislead or be likely to do so.


    If I read that a heater is "LOW CONSUMPTION" I'd assume (if I didn't know better!) that I'd get more heat out of it than an 'equivalent' heater. That would seem to be the "likely effect on consumers". It certainly seems to be the impression several posters on this forum have. So they have been misled, haven't they?
    Last edited by LittleVermin; 07-06-2011 at 11:43 PM. Reason: added 3.1 from Advertising Code
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 8th Jun 11, 9:39 AM
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    • 13,842 Thanks
    Cardew
    If I read that a heater is "LOW CONSUMPTION" I'd assume (if I didn't know better!) that I'd get more heat out of it than an 'equivalent' heater. That would seem to be the "likely effect on consumers". It certainly seems to be the impression several posters on this forum have. So they have been misled, haven't they?
    Originally posted by LittleVermin
    I absolutely agree that people will assume that they give out more heat than other heaters - that's the whole point of their webside. In that sense people are misled.

    However they are careful not to state anything that is untrue - their low wattage heaters do have low consumption; albeit low heat output.

    Why not sound out the ASA? - you don't need to be a qualified electrical engineer to make your case. I will be happy to buy you a virtual pint if they accept your complaint.
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