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In agony over selling or sticking with sole BTL

mrsmumbles
mrsmumbles Posts: 89 Forumite
edited 28 December 2019 at 4:02PM in House buying, renting & selling
Ok. So I will also see an accountant about this but I would really appreciate any words of wisdom from seasoned landlords and moneysavers out there.

Basically I have rented out a flat I bought as my first home back in 2004. I resided there until August 30th 2008 and it has rented out since then until now. First three years up to Aug 2011 were at a massive loss...yes, I was an accidental landlord who had to learn a bucketload about buy to let very quickly and somehow did quite well. I have a reliable tenant. Very few void periods. So far the rented out time is 11 years, I lived there 4.

The flat has a share of the freehold and I am a director of a dormant company...it means sorting out block insurance on the building each year and completing the annual return for CH, updating info, helping with admin when other freeholders sell on. It is unpaid and voluntary. When i lived there and neighbours helped me and shared the director role, all was fine.

Sadly the flats are now more buy to let with one owner occupier director who does a bit but is not really doing much so far to help. Another freeholder who is not director is useless and never maintains his shared sections of staircase or garden. To be honest, he is offensive and hard to deal with and I may need to take action to get back costs incurred clearing his section of a garden path he refused to maintain. He really is useless and does that whole ‘attack rather than sort out your own shortcomings’ thing...loves to criticise my admin of simple and always completed Company tasks whilst refusing to be a director himself (none of us want him to anyway!)

I am facing having to get the company to enforce the claim for the clearing work as he essentially breached his lease where maintaining grounds is stipulated. Or I could do it personally and not involve the company. It is all solvable but is casting a shadow over the rental and starting to become a hassle. He will keep his flat, he says, for about four more years.

Long term, the flats are a great investment...nice design, surrounded by gardens each freeholder is meant to maintain, private parking, warm and well insulated, Surrey location. BUT. I worry that things will deteriorate with Mr Freaky Freeholder.

Then there is the CGT issue and the April 2020 deadline for getting PRR and Lettings relief. I really am worried as this is essentially a good investment rent and I cannot work anymore since heart surgery, so getting another BTL mortgage is not gonna happen for me. My tenant is happy, I have recently refurbed the grounds and interior, it is near to my main home. I have £120K left to pay on a very nice flat with its own share of freehold which should sell for around £299K. I worked out last year that there would be no capital gain. This may well change after April.

My question is: if my other half and I sold up our main home in say two years, moved back into the flat and then sold a year later, would we escape CGT as it would indeed be our main home? Long term, being the Director is a pain, although I am good at it and have held things together for over a decade. We wanted to gradually release our assets by downsizing then moving into my old flat, then selling that and moving to Devon or somewhere. My tenant is on an old AST which has been statutory periodic since March 2016. I may well be wrong, but does this entitle me to serve a section 21 as they have the older AST contract rolling over, or do they also have security of tenure?

I have emailed the tenant asking them about how long to wish to stay on...she said as long as possible and was happy to stay on the old AST as it gives us flexibility on each side. In my ideal situation, I want to hang on to the flat, gradually pay down the BTL mortgage on it until I own it, eventually move back in, then dispose of it as a normal sale.

But now an irritating freeholder who is not my main concern but is a hit and could worsen things over time, this blooming Brexit uncertainty, section 21 going and uncertainty over whether this affects my right to move back in later, the fact my mortgage is on a variable rate and I won’t pass the tests for another and the impending end of tax breaks is making me wonder whether to sell.

It is quite a lot to ponder! I love the flat and don’t really want to sell...but nor do I want to lose a 40k payout for HMRC, selling before a huge drop, lose the right to move back in, see mortgage interest relief goes entirely (although plan to pay that down a bit)...gulp.
" I refuse to allow the banker to be the only one who laughs!":beer:

Gawd this is a hard decision: sell or keep? 4 votes

Just sell it now if you can exchange before April: unleash the dosh
25% 1 vote
Don't sell it as rents in your area are still rising and it has a good return
75% 3 votes
Return is not great, nor is your yield: sell even if after April deadline
0% 0 votes
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Comments

  • GDB2222
    GDB2222 Posts: 24,619 Forumite
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    The answer to your question is no. You’d still have a CGT liability.
    No reliance should be placed on the above! Absolutely none, do you hear?
  • Do not get? Que?
    " I refuse to allow the banker to be the only one who laughs!":beer:
  • GDB2222
    GDB2222 Posts: 24,619 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Post First Anniversary
    My question is: if my other half and I sold up our main home in say two years, moved back into the flat and then sold a year later, would we escape CGT as it would indeed be our main home?

    The answer is no.
    No reliance should be placed on the above! Absolutely none, do you hear?
  • AdrianC
    AdrianC Posts: 42,189 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post
    mrsmumbles wrote: »
    Basically I have rented out a flat I bought as my first home back in 2004.
    What did you pay for it?
    The flat has a share of the freehold and I am a director of a dormant company...it means sorting out block insurance on the building each year and completing the annual return for CH, updating info, helping with admin when other freeholders sell on. It is unpaid and voluntary. When i lived there and neighbours helped me and shared the director role, all was fine.
    That doesn't sound very dormant to me. You're the sole active director?
    Sadly the flats are now more buy to let
    It seems harsh to criticise others for doing exactly what you've done - letting their flats...
    ...and I may need to take him to small claims to get back costs incurred clearing a communal garden path he refused to maintain.
    You mean the freeholder company may need to...
    I am facing having to get the company to enforce the claim for the clearing work as he essentially breached his lease where maintaining grounds is stipulated. Or I could do it personally and not involve the company.
    So you paid the bill and organised the work personally? I'm not sure you have any claim against him...
    I have £120K left to pay on a very nice flat with its own share of freehold which should sell for around £299K. I worked out last year that there would be no capital gain. This may well change after April.
    Because you think the value will rise?

    Whether there's been a capital gain is simple. Sale price minus purchase price minus allowable expenses.

    CGT liability is different.
    My question is: if my other half and I sold up our main home in say two years, moved back into the flat and then sold a year later, would we escape CGT as it would indeed be our main home?
    No, because the period that it wasn't would still be counted. It would become a lower proportion of the period of ownership, sure.
    We wanted to gradually release our assets by downsizing then moving into my old flat, then selling that and moving to Devon or somewhere.
    Or sell the flat first.
    My tenant is on an old AST which has been statutory periodic since March 2016. I may well be wrong, but does this entitle me to serve a section 21 as they have the older AST contract rolling over, or do they also have security of tenure?
    Yep - two months s21 notice, providing all your ducks are in a row.
    In my ideal situation, I want to hang on to the flat, gradually pay down the BTL mortgage on it until I own it
    You own it now. You just owe money on a loan secured against it.
    section 21 going
    s21 isn't going.
  • chucknorris
    chucknorris Posts: 10,786 Forumite
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    mrsmumbles wrote: »
    It is quite a lot to ponder! I love the flat and don’t really want to sell...but nor do I want to lose a 40k payout for HMRC, selling before a huge drop, lose the right to move back in, see mortgage interest relief goes entirely (although plan to pay that down a bit)...gulp.

    The forthcoming abolition of letting relief and also a reduction of private residence relief of 9 months (it is also being cut in April 2020 from 18 months to 9 months) forced me to act and I sold two properties this tax year (one is still subject to contract). It wasn't too difficult to decide what to do, because I am fed up with being a landlord anyway after 29 years, and I craved hassle freer investments.

    You have not said how old you are (or did I miss that), I am almost 62 so it was getting close to the time for me to sell soon anyway. If you still have decades to go before you would otherwise sell, then the tax changes will be irrelevant. If not, you should have considered putting it on the market many months ago.
    Chuck Norris can kill two stones with one birdThe only time Chuck Norris was wrong was when he thought he had made a mistakeChuck Norris puts the "laughter" in "manslaughter".I've started running again, after several injuries had forced me to stop
  • G_M
    G_M Posts: 51,977 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Anniversary First Post Combo Breaker
    whenever you sellthere'll be CGT. But it's clearly now more trouble than it's worth.

    S21, evict, sell.

    * S21 checklist (Is a S21 valid?)

    * Ending/renewing an AST: what happens when a fixed term ends? How can a LL or tenant end a tenancy? What is a periodic tenancy?
  • Thanks to all who replied. It is so hard as I suppose I am attached to the flat, wanted to leave it in the future as a family investment although no kids ourselves, and the tenant is great.

    A few answers:
    It is a dormant company but even that requires a fair bit of admin, usually helping with the conveyancing of demanding freeholders. Six calls in a day, etc.

    There is a second director, recently appointed. He and I are trying to sort out garden neglect issues of rogue landlord. Seems a common issue with s.o.f flats. His last tenants did nothing and littered a fair bit.
    I am 47 and I bough the flat for £155k
    " I refuse to allow the banker to be the only one who laughs!":beer:
  • chuck, yep you are right...guess who spent most of it clearing the jungle instead!
    Plus major guilt issues with good tenant.
    Plus family illness.
    Plus waiting for election and Brexeeeek outcomes.

    Now it all looks good. I then realised this week how impossible it will be to move back there and offset eleven years of rental. Stuff it, time to sell. Can I get this all done in three months?
    " I refuse to allow the banker to be the only one who laughs!":beer:
  • Slithery
    Slithery Posts: 6,046 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post Photogenic
    mrsmumbles wrote: »
    Can I get this all done in three months?
    Unless you sell to another LL with the tenant in situ then I doubt it. I could take 6 months or longer just to get your tenant out before marketing the property.
  • silvercar
    silvercar Posts: 46,945 Ambassador
    Academoney Grad Name Dropper Photogenic First Anniversary
    edited 28 December 2019 at 6:53PM
    Very roughly speaking, as calculations should be in months not years and more accurate than this!

    So you have a gain of £144k, less say 4k buying and selling costs =140k.

    Lived in it for 4 years and rented it out for 11.5yrs.

    Currently you have relief for 4 yrs + 18 months = 5.5 yrs so about 32%. ie 45k
    Letting relief gives another £40k.
    GT allowance of 12k, if not used elsewhere.
    Leaving you with CGT on 43k at your marginal rate 18/ 28%.

    Post April 2020, the figures become:

    Lived in it for 4 yrs rented out for 12 yrs.
    relief for 4 yrs + 9mths ie 30%. ie 41.5k.
    GT allowance of 12k, if not used elsewhere.
    Leaving you with CGT on 86.5k at your marginal rate 18/ 28%.

    So an extra (probably) 28% of 43.5k ie 12.2k.

    some things to bear in mind.

    1. If you don't ever intend selling you never have a CGT bill.
    2. If you trust your spouse totally, consider transferring the property into joint names, so you both benefit by a CGT allowance
    3. You are comparing selling now with selling within a few years; worth also considering not selling for the foreseeable future.
    4. Don't let the tale wag the dog; your tax position is only one consideration.
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