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  • FIRST POST
    • Reaper
    • By Reaper 24th Jun 11, 2:30 PM
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    Reaper
    Deception by "The Drops of Help"
    • #1
    • 24th Jun 11, 2:30 PM
    Deception by "The Drops of Help" 24th Jun 11 at 2:30 PM
    I just got a charity collection bag through my door. Everything about it looks genuine, collecting to "support the poor families, orphans and asylums" with a picture of an anxious child on the front.

    On the back it says:
    The Drops of Help Ltd
    (Registered in England and Wales No 07121674)

    That is clearly meant to make you think it is a registered charity, but I checked and it is not. That is just it's company number.

    I think this an outrageous attempt at deception. I feel somebody ought to be regulating this but I'm not sure if anyone is. The Charity Commission would probably not get involved as it is not a charity. Any ideas?
Page 1
    • paddyrg
    • By paddyrg 24th Jun 11, 2:49 PM
    • 13,112 Posts
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    paddyrg
    • #2
    • 24th Jun 11, 2:49 PM
    • #2
    • 24th Jun 11, 2:49 PM
    Weasels. All I can say.
    • Meepster
    • By Meepster 24th Jun 11, 2:53 PM
    • 5,697 Posts
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    Meepster
    • #3
    • 24th Jun 11, 2:53 PM
    • #3
    • 24th Jun 11, 2:53 PM
    Does it mention the word "charity" on there anywhere?
    If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family anatidae on our hands

    • Reaper
    • By Reaper 24th Jun 11, 3:05 PM
    • 6,268 Posts
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    Reaper
    • #4
    • 24th Jun 11, 3:05 PM
    • #4
    • 24th Jun 11, 3:05 PM
    No, everything is implied. Have a look at their web site and you will see what I mean http://www.tdoh.org.uk/
    They never use the word charity but use phrases like "not-for-profit organisation" instead. Meaningless of course as the owner can just pay themselves a big enough salary to make sure it never makes a profit.
    • Meepster
    • By Meepster 24th Jun 11, 3:25 PM
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    Meepster
    • #5
    • 24th Jun 11, 3:25 PM
    • #5
    • 24th Jun 11, 3:25 PM
    Unfortunately, there isn't a lot you can do. They aren't doing anything legally wrong. Morally wrong maybe, but that can be said for a lot of businesses...

    And whilst I can see you are upset by what they are doing, claiming they are using deception, in the title of your thread, is very misleading. They clearly state they are a limited company and from their webpage you can also see they are VAT registered...
    If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family anatidae on our hands

    • motorguy
    • By motorguy 24th Jun 11, 8:36 PM
    • 16,774 Posts
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    motorguy
    • #6
    • 24th Jun 11, 8:36 PM
    • #6
    • 24th Jun 11, 8:36 PM
    Unfortunately, there isn't a lot you can do. They aren't doing anything legally wrong. Morally wrong maybe, but that can be said for a lot of businesses...

    And whilst I can see you are upset by what they are doing, claiming they are using deception, in the title of your thread, is very misleading. They clearly state they are a limited company and from their webpage you can also see they are VAT registered...
    Originally posted by Meepster
    I think it is deception in that it is implied that they are a charity when they are not.
    "We have normality. I repeat, we have normality. Anything you still can't cope with is therefore your own problem."
  • Premier
    • #7
    • 24th Jun 11, 8:57 PM
    • #7
    • 24th Jun 11, 8:57 PM
    No, everything is implied. Have a look at their web site and you will see what I mean http://www.tdoh.org.uk/
    They never use the word charity but use phrases like "not-for-profit organisation" instead. Meaningless of course as the owner can just pay themselves a big enough salary to make sure it never makes a profit.
    Originally posted by Reaper
    As you say, they don't claim to be a charity ... so no wrong doing there

    They do claim to be a non-profit making organisation ... and I see no evidence to suggest they are not. You'll need to get copies of their M&A if you wish to satisfy yourself they are. I suspect they are a non-profit making organisation as that is what they claim.

    All a non-profit organisation means is that they cannot distribute their surplus (what non profit making organisations call their 'profit') as a dividend to their members - they have to use it as specified in their M&A.

    Of course employees can expect to get paid, and they will be subject to PAYE rules as per any other employee.
    Have you seen how much some Chief Executives of charities are paid???

    http://society.guardian.co.uk/salarysurvey/table/0,12406,1042677,00.html

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/7229874/Tony-Blairs-faith-charity-pays-six-figure-salaries-to-top-officials.html

    I'm sorry, I don't see any evidence of wrong doing so far, but if you get any, please feel free to post
    Last edited by Premier; 24-06-2011 at 9:02 PM.
    "Now to trolling as a concept. .... Personally, I've always found it a little sad that people choose to spend such a large proportion of their lives in this way but they do, and we have to deal with it." - MSE Forum Manager 6th July 2010
    • Meepster
    • By Meepster 24th Jun 11, 11:34 PM
    • 5,697 Posts
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    Meepster
    • #8
    • 24th Jun 11, 11:34 PM
    • #8
    • 24th Jun 11, 11:34 PM
    I think it is deception in that it is implied that they are a charity when they are not.
    Originally posted by pgilc1
    Where is it implied though? I mean really?

    Simple answer is they don't.

    The even go as far as putting LTD after their company name, which IMPLIES they are a business.

    If people can't tell the difference between this company and a charity, that's down to them inferring incorrectly...
    If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family anatidae on our hands

    • jhp
    • By jhp 25th Jun 11, 12:50 AM
    • 2,248 Posts
    • 769 Thanks
    jhp
    • #9
    • 25th Jun 11, 12:50 AM
    • #9
    • 25th Jun 11, 12:50 AM
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/alanstanton/5510791952/
    • motorguy
    • By motorguy 25th Jun 11, 3:35 PM
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    motorguy
    Where is it implied though? I mean really?

    Simple answer is they don't.

    The even go as far as putting LTD after their company name, which IMPLIES they are a business.

    If people can't tell the difference between this company and a charity, that's down to them inferring incorrectly...
    Originally posted by Meepster
    We will agree to differ then.
    "We have normality. I repeat, we have normality. Anything you still can't cope with is therefore your own problem."
    • Meepster
    • By Meepster 25th Jun 11, 4:23 PM
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    Meepster
    We will agree to differ then.
    Originally posted by pgilc1
    Well, if you can show me where they impy they are a charity, then maybe I'd agree with you...
    If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family anatidae on our hands

    • antrobus
    • By antrobus 25th Jun 11, 4:24 PM
    • 15,684 Posts
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    antrobus
    Where is it implied though? I mean really?

    Simple answer is they don't.

    The even go as far as putting LTD after their company name, which IMPLIES they are a business.

    If people can't tell the difference between this company and a charity, that's down to them inferring incorrectly...
    Originally posted by Meepster
    No, "putting LTD after their company name" means that they are a limited company, whether or not the limited company in question is a charity or a business is a different question altogether. In fact it's quite common for a charity to be a limited company, since otherwise the people who run the charity would be personally liable for any debts incurred. Such as 'Oxfam' for example, where Oxfam is in fact a registered trademark of Oxfam GB Ltd, registered charity no 202918.
    • martinthebandit
    • By martinthebandit 25th Jun 11, 4:26 PM
    • 3,519 Posts
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    martinthebandit
    which is the reason why all collection bags that come here go straight from the letter box to the recycle bin.

    Job done
    Politics -
    from the words Poli, meaning many
    and tics meaning blood sucking parasites


    (thanks to Kinky Friedman (or Larry Hardman) for the quote}
  • real1314
    They claim to help those in need - orphans, poor families, asylums - yet from what has been posted, they provide no details of eactly how they do this.

    They may not directly claim to be a charity, but they do claim to perform what is generally seen as a charity function.

    I suspect they may be breaking/sailing very close to some illegality with their claims.
    • antrobus
    • By antrobus 25th Jun 11, 4:42 PM
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    antrobus
    I think this an outrageous attempt at deception. I feel somebody ought to be regulating this but I'm not sure if anyone is. The Charity Commission would probably not get involved as it is not a charity. Any ideas?
    Originally posted by Reaper
    An outrageous attempt at deception? Well yes and no. This is actually a well known 'scam'. See this article from The Guardian of 2007 - The great charity collection scam - http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2007/aug/18/moneysupplement.voluntarysector - and note how the "dodgy garment gatherers will use names such as Angel of Goodness, Angel of Help, or Island of Hope" ... that should ring a bell ..."And many will use pictures of "orphans" or "street children" on the leaflets", which should ring another.

    But everything is implied you see. As long as they don't actually use the word 'charity' such people can keep on the right side of the law.
    • antrobus
    • By antrobus 25th Jun 11, 4:45 PM
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    antrobus
    ... They clearly state they are a limited company and from their webpage you can also see they are VAT registered...
    Originally posted by Meepster
    See above. And Oxfam's VAT registration number is GB348454238. Being a charity does not exempt you from having to comply with the requirements of HMRC.
    • Meepster
    • By Meepster 25th Jun 11, 5:02 PM
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    Meepster
    See above. And Oxfam's VAT registration number is GB348454238. Being a charity does not exempt you from having to comply with the requirements of HMRC.
    Originally posted by antrobus
    What I was saying was: They are giving you all the information you need to know to find out they are not a charity.

    Just because people PRESUME they are a charity doesn't mean they are decieving anyone...

    Definition of decieve: to mislead by a false appearance or statement;

    So to be trying to decieve, they would have to mention charity in their speel. Which they clearly don't...
    Last edited by Meepster; 25-06-2011 at 5:04 PM.
    If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family anatidae on our hands

    • antrobus
    • By antrobus 25th Jun 11, 5:09 PM
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    • 22,337 Thanks
    antrobus
    What I was saying was: They are giving you all the information you need to know to find out they are not a charity.

    Just because people PRESUME they are a charity doesn't mean they are decieving anyone...
    Originally posted by Meepster
    Yes and as I was saying;

    ... But everything is implied you see. As long as they don't actually use the word 'charity' such people can keep on the right side of the law.
    Originally posted by antrobus
    Any one who thinks that such "dodgy garment gatherers" who "use names such as Angel of Goodness, Angel of Help, or Island of Hope" don't deliberately and conciously seek to encourage such a presumption is being seriously naive.

    It is however not illegal, and there's nothing you can do about it. Except that is making as many people as possible aware of what's going on.
    • antrobus
    • By antrobus 25th Jun 11, 5:11 PM
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    antrobus
    And in response to your edited comment,I would refer you to the answer given above.

    Definition of decieve: to mislead by a false appearance or statement;

    So to be trying to decieve, they would have to mention charity in their speel. Which they clearly don't...
    Originally posted by Meepster
    • motorguy
    • By motorguy 26th Jun 11, 11:32 AM
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    motorguy
    And in response to your edited comment,I would refer you to the answer given above.

    Definition of decieve: to mislead by a false appearance or statement;
    Originally posted by antrobus
    Mislead and false appearance is all over the site.

    'non profit making', 'volunteers' Implies a charity.

    'We also create employment within the UK and other countries for clothing collection staff, distribution staff and many others that may not normally be in employment.' So do many businesses, but they dont feel a need to put it on their website.

    Every member of our team carry company indentification cards. This makes them sound like a charity.

    All we request is that you supply all items in a clean, good condition as they will be re-used by other people in future. No, they will be SOLD to other people in the future.

    Registered in England and Wales No 07121674. Missing the words 'as a limited company' - makes them sound like a charity.

    A small drop of help from yourself can help to support poor families, orphans and asylums around the world. By selling them your clothes, not giving them to them.

    Also, we're not the only ones debating whether or not its deception...

    http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?5,558097,558124

    http://www.westdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?4,5704

    Also, i think their category definition is interesting from companies house...

    http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk/93ae2632e9c6756ab06f05457823dc13/compdetails

    'Retail second-hand goods in stores'
    "We have normality. I repeat, we have normality. Anything you still can't cope with is therefore your own problem."
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