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    • valencia19
    • By valencia19 4th Oct 18, 1:42 PM
    • 1Posts
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    valencia19
    Part time work and UC?
    • #1
    • 4th Oct 18, 1:42 PM
    Part time work and UC? 4th Oct 18 at 1:42 PM
    Hello all,


    I have a complicated history but long story short, I am 33 weeks pregnant and a Norwegian citizen but lived in London and worked since 2009.

    I have been denied Universal Credit cause apparently they don't accept me as a qualified person even though I have paid roughly 600 GBP a month for NI contribution and Tax in this country for the longest.

    I have today been told by my jobcentre that the only way I could be granted UC is if I work part time (roughly 12-16 h a week) then the eligibility criteria would differ a bit.

    I have found a potential part time job as a book keeper for a company based in France, who needs outsourced book keeping for 12 hours a week, would this be enough for me to claim UC? And how do I show that I work for them when i'm working from home? Will contract of employment be enough? Many thanks!
Page 1
    • huckster
    • By huckster 4th Oct 18, 6:21 PM
    • 3,336 Posts
    • 1,452 Thanks
    huckster
    • #2
    • 4th Oct 18, 6:21 PM
    • #2
    • 4th Oct 18, 6:21 PM
    If you are single, you need to be earning ( take home pay) more than 338 per month, which is the administrative earnings threshold. If you are part of a couple, then as a couple the amount would be higher.

    Single or couple ? If part of a couple, is your partner British or a working EEA national ?

    When did you stop working ?

    It is possible a mistake has been made in regard to Habitual Residency Test and if you provide more information, there are people on this site who might be able to advise.
    The comments I post are personal opinion. Always refer to official information sources before relying on internet forums. If you have a problem with any organisation, enter into their official complaints process at the earliest opportunity, as sometimes complaints have to be started within a certain time frame.
    • Ineededaname
    • By Ineededaname 4th Oct 18, 7:15 PM
    • 77 Posts
    • 30 Thanks
    Ineededaname
    • #3
    • 4th Oct 18, 7:15 PM
    • #3
    • 4th Oct 18, 7:15 PM
    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/coming-from-abroad-and-claiming-benefits-the-habitual-residence-test/the-habitual-residence-test-an-introduction/

    It sounds to me like you should be entitled from the information you have provided in your post, but you need to prove it. Did you have a full interview in the jobcentre when you started and provide all the evidence requested? People tend to believe they will just get benefits because they have been in the country for so long, which is not the case. You need to provide the evidence of this for the decision maker to be able to grant you residency.

    'You can argue that you have a right to reside if you:
    are working or self-employed
    are jobseeking
    are a former worker
    are self-sufficient
    are a student
    have been living in the UK for at least five years and have acquired a permanent right to reside
    are the primary carer of a child who themselves has the right to reside
    are the family member of someone with the right to reside.'

    Your best course of action is probably as follows

    Ask them for a mandatory reconsideration of the decision and request to have the full decision letter uploaded to your account. Tell them you wish to provide further information + evidence. You must submit a reconsideration within one month of the decision.

    The full decision letter should make you aware where you have failed and what you need to prove. I would advise you print this and take it to Citizens Advice for help submitting a proper appeal.



    I have found a potential part time job as a book keeper for a company based in France, who needs outsourced book keeping for 12 hours a week, would this be enough for me to claim UC? And how do I show that I work for them when i'm working from home? Will contract of employment be enough? Many thanks!
    Originally posted by valencia19
    12 hours a week should be enough. You can provide the contract of employment but you also normally need to provide three months proof of your wages. This route might not help you immediatley.
    Last edited by Ineededaname; 04-10-2018 at 7:19 PM.
    • OhWow
    • By OhWow 6th Oct 18, 1:21 PM
    • 94 Posts
    • 98 Thanks
    OhWow
    • #4
    • 6th Oct 18, 1:21 PM
    • #4
    • 6th Oct 18, 1:21 PM

    I have today been told by my jobcentre that the only way I could be granted UC is if I work part time (roughly 12-16 h a week) then the eligibility criteria would differ a bit.
    Originally posted by valencia19

    The EU says an EEA citizen must be a "Worker Qualified Person" to be able to have benefits and healthcare from another EEA country, or hold the EU's (valid) "PR".


    "Worker" for the EU, the EU says this work must be "genuine and effective" (can't mainly rely on benefits from that country). The UK now says that is roughly earning enough every week to pay NICs. The European Court of Justice said that some "workers" retain their worker right for a short while (to have benefits and use that country's healthcare system bill free).


    The changes the UK brought in from 2010, means that some EEA citizens who earn the minimum for UK in-work benefits, can no longer have UK benefits because these EEA citizens are not working enough to be a "worker qualified person" in the UK. EEA citizen jobseekers now have a limited time to find work in the UK, to have a "right to reside" in the UK, and no longer have access to UK benefits for housing, nor to UK benefits for their children.


    This is what the UK say is an EEA citizen "qualified person" in the UK, to then have a "right to reside" in the UK under "free movement".
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/european-economic-area-nationals-qualified-persons


    If you have managed 5 years of continuously being a "qualified person" in the UK, then you have the EU's "PR". The EU 2004 Directive does not allow a single day of not being a "qualified person" in that EEA country and doing that will reset that persons PR clock to zero again. The UK might allow a few days.


    If you are in the UK and are not being a "qualified person", nor hold a valid EU "PR", then you do not have the "right to reside" in the UK, cannot have UK benefits and must pay to use the NHS, or use your own EEA country's EHIC to pay the NHS.



    If you think you have the EU's "PR" then you do not have to be a "qualified person". The EU's PR is lost if the person resides outside the UK for more than 2 years. The EU's "PR" will end on Brexit.



    You can apply for a DCPR (Document Certifying Permanent Residence) to UKVI (UK Visa and Immigration) and if they agree that you have the EU's PR in the UK, they will issue a paper DCPR. which will make it easier to get UK benfits and use the NHS bill free. Even with a DCPR, you still need to prove your PR is valid and pass the HR test for UK benefits and prove you reside in the UK to use the NHS bill free.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/apply-for-a-permanent-residence-document-or-permanent-residence-card-form-eea-pr
    Last edited by OhWow; 06-10-2018 at 1:59 PM.
    • OhWow
    • By OhWow 6th Oct 18, 2:19 PM
    • 94 Posts
    • 98 Thanks
    OhWow
    • #5
    • 6th Oct 18, 2:19 PM
    • #5
    • 6th Oct 18, 2:19 PM
    You need to provide the evidence of this for the decision maker to be able to grant you residency.

    'You can argue that you have a right to reside if you:
    are working or self-employed work must be "genuine and effective"
    are jobseeking limited time now since 2014, including those jobseeking before that date too. No more access to all UK benefits, including those jobseeking before that date too.
    are a former worker limited time
    are self-sufficient - only if they have bought a Comprehensive Sickness Insurance. These can't be a "qualified person" in an another EEA country without a CSI. No benefits for these as they are "self suficient".
    are a student only if they have a CSI (Comprehensive Sickness Insurance.) These can't be a "qualified person" without one. No benefits for these.
    have been living in the UK for at least five years and have acquired a permanent right to reside It's not just "living" in the UK , they must have been a "qualified person" continuously for 5 years. .
    are the primary carer of a child who themselves has the right to reside - derived rigthts do not lead to the EU's PR (settlement in the UK) as it is just for a limited time until their child reaches age 18. No benefits for these. There is nothing for these in the UK in the Brexit Withdrawal Agreement.
    are the family member of someone with the right to reside - only if all the Free Movement requirements are met, continuously eg must have a CSI if the EEA sponsor is self suffient or a student; must hold a vald "RC" if they are are an Extended Family Memeber; etc etc


    EU rules end on Brexit. PR is EU rules
    Originally posted by Ineededaname






    12 hours a week should be enough. You can provide the contract of employment but you also normally need to provide three months proof of your wages. This route might not help you immediatley.
    Originally posted by Ineededaname

    The UK ended the "only working for a few hour and get full UK benefits". As per the EU's 2004 Directive, this work must now be "genuine and effective" and not "marginal and ancillary"- which seems to mean, must earn at least a minimum amount every week to pay NICs and not having more from that EEA country in benefits than earned from "work"?
    Last edited by OhWow; 06-10-2018 at 2:53 PM.
    • FBaby
    • By FBaby 7th Oct 18, 12:14 PM
    • 17,000 Posts
    • 41,891 Thanks
    FBaby
    • #6
    • 7th Oct 18, 12:14 PM
    • #6
    • 7th Oct 18, 12:14 PM
    You say you've paid NI but did you work continuously for 5 years without interruption?
    • Ineededaname
    • By Ineededaname 7th Oct 18, 11:49 PM
    • 77 Posts
    • 30 Thanks
    Ineededaname
    • #7
    • 7th Oct 18, 11:49 PM
    • #7
    • 7th Oct 18, 11:49 PM
    The UK ended the "only working for a few hour and get full UK benefits". As per the EU's 2004 Directive, this work must now be "genuine and effective" and not "marginal and ancillary"- which seems to mean, must earn at least a minimum amount every week to pay NICs and not having more from that EEA country in benefits than earned from "work"?
    Originally posted by OhWow
    The website I linked goes into all those points in more detail, for example:

    'Worker
    If you're working in the UK you don't have to satisfy the conditions of the HRT. However you'll need to show that the job you're doing is 'genuine and effective' and not 'marginal or ancillary'. There is no clear definition of what this means, but if it's a real and necessary job that an employer would pay you to do, it should be classed as work. It can be full or part time. However, from 1 March 2014, you will be asked to show that for the three months before your benefit claim your gross earnings from your work have been at least at the level at which employees start paying national insurance contributions (155 from 6 April 2016). If your earnings have reached this level you will automatically be regarded as a worker. If your earnings are below this 'minimum earnings threshold' you may still be considered a worker but you will be assessed against a wider range of criteria, for example, how much you earn, how many hours you work and whether your work is regular or intermittent.'

    I'm certainly aware of EEA workers being granted residency with only part time roles but I don't recall the specifics..12 hours at minimum wage would be above the administrative earnings threshold used by UC and the above seems to indicate that people not earning enough to pay NI can still be considered a worker. It's not exactly clear on how.

    Either way this isn't going to help the OP in the present due to the requirement to show three months of earnings. OP needs to see if they can meet+prove any of the other conditions.
    Last edited by Ineededaname; 07-10-2018 at 11:52 PM.
    • OhWow
    • By OhWow 8th Oct 18, 4:10 PM
    • 94 Posts
    • 98 Thanks
    OhWow
    • #8
    • 8th Oct 18, 4:10 PM
    • #8
    • 8th Oct 18, 4:10 PM
    'Worker
    If you're working in the UK you don't have to satisfy the conditions of the HRT. However you'll need to show that the job you're doing is 'genuine and effective' and not 'marginal or ancillary'. There is no clear definition of what this means, but if it's a real and necessary job that an employer would pay you to do, it should be classed as work. It can be full or part time. However, from 1 March 2014, you will be asked to show that for the three months before your benefit claim your gross earnings from your work have been at least at the level at which employees start paying national insurance contributions (155 from 6 April 2016). If your earnings have reached this level you will automatically be regarded as a worker. If your earnings are below this 'minimum earnings threshold' you may still be considered a worker but you will be assessed against a wider range of criteria, for example, how much you earn, how many hours you work and whether your work is regular or intermittent.'
    Originally posted by Ineededaname


    Which is what I said. They need at least 21 hours a week at the hourly NMW for the age 25 and over, to make the minimum requirment to pay class 1 NICs, presently 162 per week, to be a "worker qualified person".


    Some people retain the rights of a worker for a while. See the link I gave above to what the UK say is an EEA citizen "qualified person", while the UK is still in the EU. EU rules end on Brexit.

    I'm certainly aware of EEA workers being granted residency with only part time roles but I don't recall the specifics..12 hours at minimum wage would be above the administrative earnings threshold used by UC and the above seems to indicate that people not earning enough to pay NI can still be considered a worker. It's not exactly clear on how.
    Originally posted by Ineededaname

    In about 2012, the UK ended the type of 'just doing one lunchtime shift in a bar per week' or 'a little bit of self employment but don't earn much' etc, to be classed as a EEA "worker qualified person"" in the UK. They need to be a "qualified person" to have "a right to reside" in the UK. They need to be a "worker qualified person" to be able to claim all UK benefits now. The UK ended full UK benefits for EEA citizen jobseekers arriving in the UK and limited time now to retain UK benefits for those that were in work but lost their job. It's all in the link I gave above.

    Taking more in UK benefits than they earn from working, appears to be one of the tests they seem to use to see if the work is "genuine and effective" to be a "worker qualified person" when earning less than the 162 minimum, every week.
    Last edited by OhWow; 08-10-2018 at 5:06 PM.
    • xXMessedUpXx
    • By xXMessedUpXx 11th Oct 18, 10:32 PM
    • 17,232 Posts
    • 45,370 Thanks
    xXMessedUpXx
    • #9
    • 11th Oct 18, 10:32 PM
    • #9
    • 11th Oct 18, 10:32 PM
    If you are single, you need to be earning ( take home pay) more than 338 per month, which is the administrative earnings threshold. If you are part of a couple, then as a couple the amount would be higher.
    Originally posted by huckster
    Does this apply to any single person on UC? Sorry to butt in but ive been trying to find the earnings threashold for ages and have had no luck!
    "Life Is Like A Beautiful Melody Only The Lyrics Are Messed Up"
    To see the rainbow you need both the sun and the rain to make its colours appear
    "I just need to be alone right now, i just wanna take a little breather"
    • calcotti
    • By calcotti 11th Oct 18, 10:40 PM
    • 672 Posts
    • 434 Thanks
    calcotti
    Does this apply to any single person on UC? Sorry to butt in but ive been trying to find the earnings threashold for ages and have had no luck!
    Originally posted by xXMessedUpXx
    If your question refers to income thresholds and work search requirements see
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/728459/admj2.pdf
    Paragraph J2080 onwards

    If it’s 35 hours at 7.83 that is 274.05/week.
    Last edited by calcotti; 11-10-2018 at 10:43 PM.
    • xXMessedUpXx
    • By xXMessedUpXx 11th Oct 18, 11:23 PM
    • 17,232 Posts
    • 45,370 Thanks
    xXMessedUpXx
    If your question refers to income thresholds and work search requirements see
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/728459/admj2.pdf
    Paragraph J2080 onwards

    If it’s 35 hours at 7.83 that is 274.05/week.
    Originally posted by calcotti
    Thanks, sadly im only on 192 per week, be interesting to see them force me into more work when both my doctor and Occ Heath have said im not allowed to do more than 6 hours a day and i can only work 24hrs a week maximum. I can tell i'm really not going to have a good time with UC.


    Iedit: had a google and found this https://www.disabledviewuk.com/universal-credit-earnings-and-job-searching-requirements

    i assume as i meet the AET that i would be o the light touch programme?
    Last edited by xXMessedUpXx; 11-10-2018 at 11:28 PM.
    "Life Is Like A Beautiful Melody Only The Lyrics Are Messed Up"
    To see the rainbow you need both the sun and the rain to make its colours appear
    "I just need to be alone right now, i just wanna take a little breather"
    • calcotti
    • By calcotti 12th Oct 18, 7:39 AM
    • 672 Posts
    • 434 Thanks
    calcotti
    I had not heard of the AET before so very useful link you have posted. I see that paragraph J2104 in my link refers to this.

    Regardless of earnings thresholds the work coach can limit work search requirements due to health issues so it may not be an issue anyway.
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