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  • FIRST POST
    • JKenH
    • By JKenH 15th Nov 19, 6:21 AM
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    JKenH
    V2H and V2G
    • #1
    • 15th Nov 19, 6:21 AM
    V2H and V2G 15th Nov 19 at 6:21 AM
    Inspired by a post from ASavvyBuyer listing a V2H charger (link below) on the domestic battery thread I thought it might be useful to have a separate thread for V2H as this technology now looks as though it is taking off.
    https://wallbox.com/en_uk/quasar-dc-charger


    I have expanded the scope of the thread to discuss V2G as well as V2H as discussion was naturally extending to V2G.
    Last edited by JKenH; 20-11-2019 at 9:07 AM. Reason: Extended thread to include V2G
    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, Nissan Leaf (plus some ICEs )
Page 1
    • JKenH
    • By JKenH 15th Nov 19, 6:33 AM
    • 1,157 Posts
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    JKenH
    • #2
    • 15th Nov 19, 6:33 AM
    • #2
    • 15th Nov 19, 6:33 AM
    While looking for V2H chargers I came across this V2H device.

    http://setec-power.com/index.php?m=content&c=index&a=show&catid=15&id=24
    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, Nissan Leaf (plus some ICEs )
    • JKenH
    • By JKenH 15th Nov 19, 6:36 AM
    • 1,157 Posts
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    JKenH
    • #3
    • 15th Nov 19, 6:36 AM
    • #3
    • 15th Nov 19, 6:36 AM
    An article on V2H in Australia.

    https://chargedevs.com/newswire/nissan-australia-touts-leaf-v2h-capabilities-disses-tesla-battery-project/



    Nissan Australia’s Manager of Electrification and Mobility Ben Warren said the new LEAF already incorporates Vehicle-to-Home (V2H) capability. Demo models of V2H charging boxes are already on the way to Australia, and after about six months of testing, the feature should be made available to Nissan customers. “The vehicle we see today is capable from the factory right now – it is future-proofed for not only the EV world but also the future energy ecosystem,” says Warren.

    I am now worried that having just bought a 2017 Leaf the V2H technology might only be compatible with the new Leaf model.
    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, Nissan Leaf (plus some ICEs )
    • JKenH
    • By JKenH 15th Nov 19, 7:21 AM
    • 1,157 Posts
    • 3,322 Thanks
    JKenH
    • #4
    • 15th Nov 19, 7:21 AM
    • #4
    • 15th Nov 19, 7:21 AM
    A somewhat negative take on V2G and V2H from a year ago.

    https://thedriven.io/2018/10/19/v2g-whats-the-state-of-play-with-vehicle-to-grid-vehicle-to-home-technology/

    V2G (vehicle to grid) and V2H (vehicle to home) are potentially game changing technologies that are still in the very early stages of development. So the initial answer for those who know a bit about them, and are wanting to implement them now, is ‘not there yet – and except for limited V2H roll-outs, may never happen’.
    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, Nissan Leaf (plus some ICEs )
    • Ectophile
    • By Ectophile 15th Nov 19, 9:19 PM
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    Ectophile
    • #5
    • 15th Nov 19, 9:19 PM
    • #5
    • 15th Nov 19, 9:19 PM
    As someone who is thinking of buying an electric car in the not-too-distant future, I can't think why I would even want a V2H system.


    If I buy an EV, I want to be able to arrive home and plug the vehicle in, safe in the knowledge that when I want to go somewhere, the vehicle will be fully charged.


    What I don't want to find is that my energy company was a bit short of power that evening, and they have sucked half the charge out of my car. So I don't now have enough charge to go where I want to.
    If it sticks, force it.
    If it breaks, well it wasn't working right anyway.
    • EricMears
    • By EricMears 15th Nov 19, 9:36 PM
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    EricMears
    • #6
    • 15th Nov 19, 9:36 PM
    • #6
    • 15th Nov 19, 9:36 PM
    What I don't want to find is that my energy company was a bit short of power that evening, and they have sucked half the charge out of my car.
    Originally posted by Ectophile
    I believe you'll find that scenario would be an example of V2G.

    In V2H, you'd plug the car in at dusk and use it to power your lights etc until bedtime. Then it would recharge itself at offpeak rates and be restored to full range by dawn.
    NE Derbyshire.
    4kWp S Facing 17.5deg slope (dormer roof).
    • 1961Nick
    • By 1961Nick 15th Nov 19, 10:53 PM
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    1961Nick
    • #7
    • 15th Nov 19, 10:53 PM
    • #7
    • 15th Nov 19, 10:53 PM
    I believe you'll find that scenario would be an example of V2G.

    In V2H, you'd plug the car in at dusk and use it to power your lights etc until bedtime. Then it would recharge itself at offpeak rates and be restored to full range by dawn.
    Originally posted by EricMears
    It’s basically a 24kWh domestic battery on wheels.

    Octopus Go may be the ideal tariff for you when you get the Leaf. 4 hours of charging @ 7kWh/hour is just enough to replenish it from empty to fully charged. You could also use the 4 hours for heating your HW cylinders plus some early morning delayed laundry cycles.

    Setting the heat pumps to take advantage of the last hour of off peak might work out beneficially as they’re quite frugal when just maintaining a temperature.

    Edit: just seen that I’ve quoted Eric instead of Ken!
    4kWp (black/black) - Sofar Inverter - SSE(141į) - 30į pitch - North Lincs
    Installed June 2013 - PVGIS = 3400

    Sofar ME3000SP Inverter & 5 x Pylontech US2000B Plus Batteries - 12kWh
    • EVandPV
    • By EVandPV 18th Nov 19, 1:18 PM
    • 123 Posts
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    EVandPV
    • #8
    • 18th Nov 19, 1:18 PM
    • #8
    • 18th Nov 19, 1:18 PM
    Even with the V2G on the OVO trial, my understanding is that you tell the system when you need the car to be ready and it ensures there's enough charge for you by that time.
    There shouldn't be a scenario where you find you don't have enough charge to use the car. Unless of course you forget to state when you need the car again.
    Scott in Fife, 3kwp pv south facing, Fronius inverter installed Jan 2012
    Renault Zoe R110 40kwh, Zappi 2 charger, arduino immersion controller
    4.8kwh Pylon battery storage with Lux ac controller due to be installed 17/12/19
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 19th Nov 19, 8:13 AM
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    Martyn1981
    • #9
    • 19th Nov 19, 8:13 AM
    • #9
    • 19th Nov 19, 8:13 AM
    Even with the V2G on the OVO trial, my understanding is that you tell the system when you need the car to be ready and it ensures there's enough charge for you by that time.
    There shouldn't be a scenario where you find you don't have enough charge to use the car. Unless of course you forget to state when you need the car again.
    Originally posted by EVandPV
    Yes, plus you can use the 'boost' button apparently to charge during the 4-8pm slot, and whilst they'd like the car plugged in, you could of course simply not plug it in when you get home if you are popping back out in that time slot and want all the remaining range.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 19th Nov 19, 2:43 PM
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    zeupater
    Hi

    The way I see it is V2H offers a solution that directly suits me (energy provision/storage etc) and has the by-product of a tangible positive impact on the grid, energy provision & grid services as a whole (through reducing peak demand etc) for which I would be willing to pay within the overall case for investing in an EV ... whereas ... V2G offers a solution in which the tangible benefits are heavily weighted towards the energy provision sector (reduced/zero capital outlay & depreciation for storage provision) which would need a substantial financial sweetener to convince me otherwise at the current cost and development stage of batteries ...

    For the foreseeable future the position looks to be ... V2H - maybe, V2G - keep it at least a barge pole length away from the pockets, but watch-out for cost/benefit developments!

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • EVandPV
    • By EVandPV 19th Nov 19, 2:59 PM
    • 123 Posts
    • 131 Thanks
    EVandPV
    Hi

    The way I see it is V2H offers a solution that directly suits me (energy provision/storage etc) and has the by-product of a tangible positive impact on the grid, energy provision & grid services as a whole (through reducing peak demand etc) for which I would be willing to pay within the overall case for investing in an EV ... whereas ... V2G offers a solution in which the tangible benefits are heavily weighted towards the energy provision sector (reduced/zero capital outlay & depreciation for storage provision) which would need a substantial financial sweetener to convince me otherwise at the current cost and development stage of batteries ...

    For the foreseeable future the position looks to be ... V2H - maybe, V2G - keep it at least a barge pole length away from the pockets, but watch-out for cost/benefit developments!

    HTH
    Z
    Originally posted by zeupater

    I would also be concerned about how much of a hammering the battery might take under V2G, especially while it's still at the trial stage and the number of participants is low.
    Last edited by EVandPV; 19-11-2019 at 3:04 PM.
    Scott in Fife, 3kwp pv south facing, Fronius inverter installed Jan 2012
    Renault Zoe R110 40kwh, Zappi 2 charger, arduino immersion controller
    4.8kwh Pylon battery storage with Lux ac controller due to be installed 17/12/19
    • JKenH
    • By JKenH 19th Nov 19, 4:27 PM
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    • 3,322 Thanks
    JKenH
    Apologies for the duplication but I had posted an update on another thread of the current state of my progress to V2H.

    The project is currently being reconsidered as apparently there is no signal where I live to operate a Smart meter (the joys of rural Lincolnshire- hardly any sun or network coverage).

    The cost of the Wallbox Quasar bi-directional charger is £1200 (presumably plus fitting less £500 government grant). In the absence of access to a smart tariff would it still be worthwhile on E7 saving about 7.5p/ kWh (the difference between charging at night rates and discharging at day rates)?

    Letís assume the installed cost was say £1200 (ignoring any battery degradation).

    At a rough guess my annual net (after solar contribution) day usage which a battery could potentially cover is about 3000kwh of which about 1800 kwh is November to February. If I was to cover all the day time usage from the EV battery that would only leave an average of 15 kWh/day available for driving during those months.
    Realistically, if I could maybe save 1500 kWh of daytime usage from E7 stored in the battery over this winter period I would save £112. 50

    If the sun shone consistently from 1st April to 31st August and I didnít use the car too much I could potentially save another 900 kWh (average 6 kWh/day) by meeting all the household demand (day and night) from solar and solar charging of the battery. The sun doesnít, however, shine consistently and some days I would empty the battery using the Leaf as a car, so perhaps a summertime saving of 500 kwh at an average (day/night rate) of 12p/kWh might be achievable - £60.

    March and September would be somewhere in between- say another £30 over the two months.

    The total saving per annum would be of the order of £200. Payback of the Wallbox would take 6 years. Then of course there is the battery degradation to consider - Iím not sure how to express that but maybe 120 cycles per annum for 3000 kwh from a 30 kwh battery? Then there is the warranty issue.

    So I am not sure whether it is worth it at this stage. I would welcome any thoughts.
    Last edited by JKenH; 19-11-2019 at 4:36 PM. Reason: Correction
    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, Nissan Leaf (plus some ICEs )
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 19th Nov 19, 4:37 PM
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    Martyn1981
    I would also be concerned about how much of a hammering the battery might take under V2G, especially while it's still at the trial stage and the number of participants is low.
    Originally posted by EVandPV
    Agree, especially with a small Leaf batt and older technology, but a few years ago there were trial results that seemed to show that V2G was actually good for your battery. I think it was because the battery is being treated far more gently than it is when driving.

    This is old news but I'll have a nose around for it, and hope it's not just in my head!
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 19th Nov 19, 4:41 PM
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    Martyn1981
    I think, this is what I was thinking of, so to speak, and this article photo features a Leaf, which is a nice circular touch.

    V2G could help extend EV battery life

    Dr Kotub Uddin, along with colleagues from WMGís Energy and Electrical Systems group and Jaguar Land Rover, has demonstrated that vehicle-to-grid (V2G) technology can take enough energy from idle EV batteries for use in the grid and to power buildings without damaging the batteries.

    In fact, this new research into the potentials of V2G shows that it could improve vehicle battery life by around ten per cent over a year.

    According to the university, Dr Uddinís team spent two years analysing some of the most advanced lithium-ion batteries used in commercially available EVs Ė and created one of the most accurate battery degradation models existing in the public domain Ė to predict battery capacity and power fade over time. They did this under various ageing acceleration factors, including temperature, state of charge, current and depth of discharge.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • JKenH
    • By JKenH 19th Nov 19, 6:40 PM
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    JKenH
    I think, this is what I was thinking of, so to speak, and this article photo features a Leaf, which is a nice circular touch.

    V2G could help extend EV battery life
    Originally posted by Martyn1981

    For the technically minded this was the actual research paper published on the battery thread last week.

    http://wrap.warwick.ac.uk/88018/13/WRAP-possibility-extending-lifetime-lithium-ion-batteries-Marco-2017.pdf

    Mentioned in one of the comments below the article Mart attached was the issue of round trip losses which I had forgotten about in my calculations for my V2H exercise.
    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, Nissan Leaf (plus some ICEs )
    • EVandPV
    • By EVandPV 19th Nov 19, 6:44 PM
    • 123 Posts
    • 131 Thanks
    EVandPV
    So I am not sure whether it is worth it at this stage. I would welcome any thoughts.
    Originally posted by JKenH
    It's a difficult one. Not sure I'd be up for it at the moment though, even if I did have a Leaf. Too many ifs and buts.
    Scott in Fife, 3kwp pv south facing, Fronius inverter installed Jan 2012
    Renault Zoe R110 40kwh, Zappi 2 charger, arduino immersion controller
    4.8kwh Pylon battery storage with Lux ac controller due to be installed 17/12/19
    • EricMears
    • By EricMears 19th Nov 19, 8:36 PM
    • 2,579 Posts
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    EricMears
    So I am not sure whether it is worth it at this stage. I would welcome any thoughts.
    Originally posted by JKenH
    I have got a Leaf and solar panels but really not interested in joining such a scheme.

    I very seldom manage to plug Leaf in during strong sunshine and haven't been very impressed with the reports of tariffs offered for such a scheme. I manage to use most of our own consumption without dropping any into car whilst still being given the 50% deemed export rate. More than satisfied with paying 8ppu to charge car overnight or getting a free top-up at Nissan dealers when away from home.
    NE Derbyshire.
    4kWp S Facing 17.5deg slope (dormer roof).
    • JKenH
    • By JKenH 19th Nov 19, 9:10 PM
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    • 3,322 Thanks
    JKenH
    I have got a Leaf and solar panels but really not interested in joining such a scheme.

    I very seldom manage to plug Leaf in during strong sunshine and haven't been very impressed with the reports of tariffs offered for such a scheme. I manage to use most of our own consumption without dropping any into car whilst still being given the 50% deemed export rate. More than satisfied with paying 8ppu to charge car overnight or getting a free top-up at Nissan dealers when away from home.
    Originally posted by EricMears
    Just to clarify, I am not looking at joining a V2G scheme. I am just considering using my Leaf as a big battery to power the house using stored cheap rate electricity or stored solar, i.e. V2H. Because my panels are east and west facing I donít generate much in winter but I can produce around 850 kWh in May, June and July. Using it at home wonít affect my deemed export and as I have been told I canít have a smart meter because of a lack of signal I canít see one being imposed on me.
    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, Nissan Leaf (plus some ICEs )
    • EVandPV
    • By EVandPV 19th Nov 19, 10:01 PM
    • 123 Posts
    • 131 Thanks
    EVandPV
    Using it at home wonít affect my deemed export and as I have been told I canít have a smart meter because of a lack of signal I canít see one being imposed on me.
    Originally posted by JKenH
    We just switched to Octopus and awaiting a smart meter being fitted.
    I gather they use the mobile network to transmit readings to the supplier.
    Seems kind of strange in this day and age that the meters don't also have wifi or ethernet capability which would solve the issue for people in areas with poor mobile coverage.
    Not so "smart" after all !
    Scott in Fife, 3kwp pv south facing, Fronius inverter installed Jan 2012
    Renault Zoe R110 40kwh, Zappi 2 charger, arduino immersion controller
    4.8kwh Pylon battery storage with Lux ac controller due to be installed 17/12/19
    • 1961Nick
    • By 1961Nick 20th Nov 19, 12:03 AM
    • 1,172 Posts
    • 3,801 Thanks
    1961Nick
    We just switched to Octopus and awaiting a smart meter being fitted.
    I gather they use the mobile network to transmit readings to the supplier.
    Seems kind of strange in this day and age that the meters don't also have wifi or ethernet capability which would solve the issue for people in areas with poor mobile coverage.
    Not so "smart" after all !
    Originally posted by EVandPV
    I also live in an area with poor mobile connectivity & had to have a SMETS1 meter fitted as these are apparently are better communicators.
    4kWp (black/black) - Sofar Inverter - SSE(141į) - 30į pitch - North Lincs
    Installed June 2013 - PVGIS = 3400

    Sofar ME3000SP Inverter & 5 x Pylontech US2000B Plus Batteries - 12kWh
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