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    • GreatApe
    • By GreatApe 2nd Oct 19, 11:46 AM
    • 4,122Posts
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    GreatApe
    BEVs deals and information
    • #1
    • 2nd Oct 19, 11:46 AM
    BEVs deals and information 2nd Oct 19 at 11:46 AM
    A thread for deals on BEVs

    This seems very tempting 5,631 for two years brand new EV
    No road tax 300
    No MOT 100
    No congestion charge. xyz
    Around 2,350 fuel savings over the two years
    Around 250 electric cost
    Overall cost of ownership would be circa 5631 - 2,000 fuel - 300 road tax -100 MOT +250 electric so about 3,500 or 22p per mile for the capital cost which is very competitive

    Also being a new car has no maintenance or breakdown costs so even lower cost Vs keeping your old car

    Also the range may be only 180 miles but since it's a lease feel free to charge to 100% often as you don't need to worry about battery life rather than the more recommend 80% (although I'd say don't be an !!! treat the car well so the next owner has a good experience too)

    5p night time charging

    https://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/hyundai-ioniq-electric-100kw-premium-38kwh-24m-lease-8k-miles-pa-1114-initial-189pm-160-admin-5631-at-leasing-options-3303000

    Seems a good deal if in the market for a replacement car

    Can buy via a company to save VAT and delivery around Jan so will benefit most its life from 0-1% BIK

    Tempting......
    Last edited by GreatApe; 02-10-2019 at 11:49 AM.
Page 3
    • GreatApe
    • By GreatApe 4th Oct 19, 10:33 PM
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    • 3,025 Thanks
    GreatApe
    Another thought, in installing more insulation/home improvements, solar, battery and ashp Ive reduced my annual home heating oil usage (diesel) by about 1000 litres.... about 220 gallons. Times 40mpg its 8800 miles..... more than I do per year in the car... ballpark figures not absolute of course. Never tied the two up before, just was working on reducing that down by a further 300 or so (not now its winter ;-)).
    Originally posted by Solarchaser

    Yep heating is a huge one far more than people realise

    During the cold months my heating uses the same energy as someone driving 150 miles per day

    To that end I wonder if it would be better to scrap the 3,500 per EV subsidy and make it a 3,500 heat pump subsidy. Likewise importing a 2k heat pump is much easier on the trade balance than importing a 40k Tesla
    • 1961Nick
    • By 1961Nick 5th Oct 19, 12:07 AM
    • 1,182 Posts
    • 3,833 Thanks
    1961Nick
    Yep heating is a huge one far more than people realise

    During the cold months my heating uses the same energy as someone driving 150 miles per day

    To that end I wonder if it would be better to scrap the 3,500 per EV subsidy and make it a 3,500 heat pump subsidy. Likewise importing a 2k heat pump is much easier on the trade balance than importing a 40k Tesla
    Originally posted by GreatApe
    I like the idea of quadrupling the subsidy ... but only for drivers that travel more than 30,000 miles pa ... where do I sign?
    4kWp (black/black) - Sofar Inverter - SSE(141) - 30 pitch - North Lincs
    Installed June 2013 - PVGIS = 3400

    Sofar ME3000SP Inverter & 5 x Pylontech US2000B Plus Batteries - 12kWh
    • markin
    • By markin 5th Oct 19, 7:03 AM
    • 891 Posts
    • 739 Thanks
    markin
    Used market
    • Used market drops -2.1% in 2018, with 167,980 fewer cars changing hands compared with 2017.
    • Alternatively fuelled cars up 26.9% year-on-year as buyers opt for latest technology.
    • Superminis remain the most popular buy, with more than 2.7m finding new homes in 2018.



    https://www.smmt.co.uk/2019/02/used-car-sales-q4-2018/

    Car Registrations
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 5th Oct 19, 8:09 AM
    • 9,799 Posts
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    Martyn1981
    Hiya Joe. I'm not sure how you can use the whole figure for the Tesla, shirley just the extra for the batt pack, since a car has to be built either way (nobody manufactures a second hand car, so you need a new car in the food chain, to free the s/h car line below it.)

    Also, as explained before, the ICE gets dirtier as it gets older due to wear and tear on the mechanicals making it less efficient, whereas the BEV only gets cleaner as the CO2 intensity of the grid keeps falling.

    But a really important issue here is where is the pollution? I don't want to argue that gas generation emissions are clean, but I assume they aren't too bad (I would of course never say that about coal). Plus the gas emissions are at controlled and centralised plants.

    The emissions from petrol and diesel ICEV's are 'shared' directly with us, and are a major part of the reason why city air quality is so poor.

    There's also the need if we are going to try to compare figures more fairly, of including all those other 'costs' I mentioned, exploration, extraction, transport and transport again. I think we can balance out the refinery against the RE powerstation, as sources of energy, but the fuel supply chain and related emissions also need to be added to the ICE given that a BEV, going forward will be supplied, at ever increasing levels, by leccy from a free fuel source.

    So the real comparison here will be additional energy/emissions from the batt production v's the lifetime supply and consumption of petrol/diesel.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 5th Oct 19, 8:12 AM
    • 9,799 Posts
    • 14,741 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Regarding heating, heat pumps and heat pump subsidies, they already exist and are far more generous than the EV subsidy. An average house would probably be able to claim around 10k-15k+.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • ABrass
    • By ABrass 5th Oct 19, 8:52 AM
    • 239 Posts
    • 333 Thanks
    ABrass
    Why recalculate pi (think reinvent the wheel) when it's been done before. There's loads of apples to apples comparisons for BEVs to ICE around. NI is a bit !!!! on those scales as it has such an unclean grid but I believe it does break even, let alone when you factor in second Life use of batteries.
    • JKenH
    • By JKenH 5th Oct 19, 8:54 AM
    • 1,167 Posts
    • 3,330 Thanks
    JKenH
    Used market
    • Used market drops -2.1% in 2018, with 167,980 fewer cars changing hands compared with 2017.
    • Alternatively fuelled cars up 26.9% year-on-year as buyers opt for latest technology.
    • Superminis remain the most popular buy, with more than 2.7m finding new homes in 2018.



    https://www.smmt.co.uk/2019/02/used-car-sales-q4-2018/

    Car Registrations
    Originally posted by markin
    I was most surprised by the rapid growth of MHEVs compared with the growth in EVs.

    I came across this 2015 paper on uptake of BEVs - dated but fascinating reading and much of what is in there applies today.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/464763/uptake-of-ulev-uk.pdf

    One quote from the document says

    Based on the available evidence there are likely to distinct segments of future EV purchasers in the UK, all sharing similar demographics, but characterised by either strong pro-environmental attitudes, the desire to save money on fuel costs or an active interest in new technology.


    As many of us here fit into one or more of the categories of potential purchasers, our perception of future take up of EVs may be skewed positively, and the general public may have a different perception which could slow down their roll out and sustain the purchase of ICEs albeit in MHEV form.
    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, Nissan Leaf (plus some ICEs )
    • joefizz
    • By joefizz 5th Oct 19, 9:02 AM
    • 456 Posts
    • 396 Thanks
    joefizz
    Hiya Joe. I'm not sure how you can use the whole figure for the Tesla, shirley just the extra for the batt pack, since a car has to be built either way (nobody manufactures a second hand car, so you need a new car in the food chain, to free the s/h car line below it.)
    Originally posted by Martyn1981

    Martyn,
    The point is about running cars older, not taking them off the roads with scrappage schemes or making them uneconomic to repair/disposing of them once they get to 6-7 years old.
    Again, there is evidence that 2nd hand cars are being artificially taken out of the market to promote new ones and a lot of the time its to promote 'greener' etc when its just keeping the car companies going.
    As Ive pointed out, you can run an older car for 10 more years with that CO2 over 10 years compared to the CO2 in producing just one car regardless of how fuel efficient it is.
    • joefizz
    • By joefizz 5th Oct 19, 9:04 AM
    • 456 Posts
    • 396 Thanks
    joefizz
    • Alternatively fuelled cars up 26.9% year-on-year as buyers opt for latest technology
    Originally posted by markin

    Model 3s getting delivered in the UK. Will be interesting to see if that continues past the initial surge.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 5th Oct 19, 9:17 AM
    • 9,799 Posts
    • 14,741 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Martyn,
    The point is about running cars older, not taking them off the roads with scrappage schemes or making them uneconomic to repair/disposing of them once they get to 6-7 years old.
    Again, there is evidence that 2nd hand cars are being artificially taken out of the market to promote new ones and a lot of the time its to promote 'greener' etc when its just keeping the car companies going.
    As Ive pointed out, you can run an older car for 10 more years with that CO2 over 10 years compared to the CO2 in producing just one car regardless of how fuel efficient it is.
    Originally posted by joefizz
    Hi Joe, I get your point, but is this really happening? If the car is un-economic to repair then doesn't that just mean it's un-economic. Now that might be due to emissions regs, but I'm hardly going to argue against that.

    Plus you are on the edge of a major BEV win, and that's that the cars can be designed to last much, much longer. With battery and powertrains good for 500,000 miles and production now possibly approaching twice that, BEV's can be the vehicle that last far longer.

    But (mass production) ICEV's have never been built to last that long since the mechanicals will become too costly to maintain, and thus they are removed due to being un-economic.

    Please understand I accept the premise of running an existing car longer, though I'm not convinced it's cleaner, however I'm not fully buying into the early retirement of the existing fleet, in which case it's not a sh ICE v's a new BEV, but a new BEV v's a new ICE, and that game is over, already.

    I appreciate some may not like this part, but again, I think a focus purely on CO2 is blinkered, we also have to consider the gross energy consumption of an ICE (what comes out the ground (plus all the energy getting, processing and transporting it)), probably giving us an efficiency of 10%? And the highly polluting emissions at street level, v's 'cleaner' and controlled emissions at a gas powerstation ...... slowly transforming into RE powerstations over time.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • joefizz
    • By joefizz 5th Oct 19, 9:33 AM
    • 456 Posts
    • 396 Thanks
    joefizz
    Hi Joe, I get your point, but is this really happening? If the car is un-economic to repair then doesn't that just mean it's un-economic. Now that might be due to emissions regs, but I'm hardly going to argue against that.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Yes, scrappage schemes... mot failures that require parts that cost more than hiring a car on pcp ;-)
    Loads of other stuff about returned vehicles not showing up on tax and mot etc etc.
    Oh, yeah, its all being done, problem is to what extent.

    As I keep emphasising its the increase in CO2 front loaded with new builds thats the problem, you can tax people off the roads or make it expensive to use more mileage but if its all front loaded with new builds then theres the problem, not the long burn car emissions. Until thats sorted, including end of life recycling (which we were doing in manufacturing datacomms equipment 20 years ago, but car industry isnt regulated like that)




    Plus you are on the edge of a major BEV win, and that's that the cars can be designed to last much, much longer. With battery and powertrains good for 500,000 miles and production now possibly approaching twice that, BEV's can be the vehicle that last far longer.

    But (mass production) ICEV's have never been built to last that long since the mechanicals will become too costly to maintain, and thus they are removed due to being un-economic.

    Please understand I accept the premise of running an existing car longer, though I'm not convinced it's cleaner, however I'm not fully buying into the early retirement of the existing fleet, in which case it's not a sh ICE v's a new BEV, but a new BEV v's a new ICE, and that game is over, already.

    I appreciate some may not like this part, but again, I think a focus purely on CO2 is blinkered, we also have to consider the gross energy consumption of an ICE (what comes out the ground (plus all the energy getting, processing and transporting it)), probably giving us an efficiency of 10%? And the highly polluting emissions at street level, v's 'cleaner' and controlled emissions at a gas powerstation ...... slowly transforming into RE powerstations over time.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981

    I agree. I worked on a 1980 ford fiesta when I was 17 and kept it running but new cars which are light years ahead in longevity terms are being scrapped in a lot shorter up to a similar timeframe for various reasons. The EU is bringing in right to repair for appliances and parts up to 10 years so why not cars, or longer.


    Scrapping every car and introducing BEVs for everyone would be catastrophic in terms of emissions right here right now. Its a big planet and they all go somewhere. A slow long phased in approach but as Ive shown even with my modest mileage, solar array and house battery Id still need to take half the power from the grid.
    BEV design needs to be planned recyclable from the start which of course will kill off the car companies, they dont want to produce a car that runs for 10 or 20 years and then can be recycled easily into a new car because they will be long gone...
    ...unless you are company like Tesla with limited output and a phased approach, by the time you supply everyone who wants one it would be time to take the old ones back and remanufacture into new ones for the same owner... wouldnt that be the ideal?



    So humans, how did you kill your planet? Well, by accident, we thought we were doing the right thing...
    Last edited by joefizz; 05-10-2019 at 9:38 AM.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 5th Oct 19, 12:19 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Cheers Joe.

    Totally agree about Tesla v's the old guard, but I can hardly blame them trying to cling on to a product/lifestyle that has made them a lot of money.

    Be it BEV's TAAS, leccy buses, government schemes, or whatever, the next decade is going to be a total bloodbath for the old guard.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • mmmmikey
    • By mmmmikey 5th Oct 19, 2:00 PM
    • 453 Posts
    • 744 Thanks
    mmmmikey
    A little bit of an aside, but now is an excellent time to by and ICE car if you're in the market for one - the dealers are almost giving them away. I looked at a nearly new Astra Estate that was well priced, but before I bought it made a cheeky offer to another dealer - if you can match the price for a new version of the same car I'll buy it. And after a bit of toing and froing they did, represnting a discount of about 25% and I got a decent PX value for the old car as well. Wish it had been a BEV but not really an option for me yet because of towing limits.
    • JKenH
    • By JKenH 5th Oct 19, 2:36 PM
    • 1,167 Posts
    • 3,330 Thanks
    JKenH
    A little bit of an aside, but now is an excellent time to by and ICE car if you're in the market for one - the dealers are almost giving them away. I looked at a nearly new Astra Estate that was well priced, but before I bought it made a cheeky offer to another dealer - if you can match the price for a new version of the same car I'll buy it. And after a bit of toing and froing they did, represnting a discount of about 25% and I got a decent PX value for the old car as well. Wish it had been a BEV but not really an option for me yet because of towing limits.
    Originally posted by mmmmikey

    I think that is the case for a lot of people (including me). We want to buy an EV but for different reasons there isnt one yet that ticks every box. The range of cars available is just too limited - where are all the estates, 4x4s, open top sports cars, city cars, small family cars? There might be the odd manufacturer building them but there is a lack of choice. The electric car has become a sector of its own, as even Tesla are finding, losing sales of the S and X to the 3 - cars that would traditionally be seen as in different sectors.
    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, Nissan Leaf (plus some ICEs )
    • GreatApe
    • By GreatApe 5th Oct 19, 4:35 PM
    • 4,122 Posts
    • 3,025 Thanks
    GreatApe
    I think that is the case for a lot of people (including me). We want to buy an EV but for different reasons there isnt one yet that ticks every box. The range of cars available is just too limited - where are all the estates, 4x4s, open top sports cars, city cars, small family cars? There might be the odd manufacturer building them but there is a lack of choice. The electric car has become a sector of its own, as even Tesla are finding, losing sales of the S and X to the 3 - cars that would traditionally be seen as in different sectors.
    Originally posted by JKenH

    Give it time, BEVs are still small scale
    I can see BEVs replacing diesels soon enough but not petrol for a while yet

    I guess currently it makes sense to choose a tech depending on mileage
    Petrol sub 8,000 miles
    Diesel 12,000 miles
    Electric 15,000 miles
    With some overlap

    Petrol being the cheapest to purchase but more expensive per mile
    Diesel more expensive but per mile cheaper
    Electric most expensive but per mile cheaper still

    I don't know if it's true or just internet 'fact' but lots of people seem to be saying new diesels won't last very long as the regs are too strict the manufacturers have not been able to build build long lasting engines. Could be nonsense but even the rumour puts me off diesels. Old diesels were pretty good I had a diesel car that hit 250,000 miles with no engine problems whatsoever
    • mmmmikey
    • By mmmmikey 5th Oct 19, 6:00 PM
    • 453 Posts
    • 744 Thanks
    mmmmikey
    Give it time, BEVs are still small scale
    I can see BEVs replacing diesels soon enough but not petrol for a while yet

    I guess currently it makes sense to choose a tech depending on mileage
    Petrol sub 8,000 miles
    Diesel 12,000 miles
    Electric 15,000 miles
    With some overlap

    Petrol being the cheapest to purchase but more expensive per mile
    Diesel more expensive but per mile cheaper
    Electric most expensive but per mile cheaper still

    I don't know if it's true or just internet 'fact' but lots of people seem to be saying new diesels won't last very long as the regs are too strict the manufacturers have not been able to build build long lasting engines. Could be nonsense but even the rumour puts me off diesels. Old diesels were pretty good I had a diesel car that hit 250,000 miles with no engine problems whatsoever
    Originally posted by GreatApe

    I agree with everything you say here - it's exactly that logic that has lead me to buy a petrol engined car for the first time in years (decades?) instead of a diesel. I'm hoping that in 3 to 5 years time when I start to think about changing again a BEV will be a viable option for a low mileage user with a caravan. I'm certainly hopeful, but who knows....
    • Solarchaser
    • By Solarchaser 5th Oct 19, 7:05 PM
    • 199 Posts
    • 264 Thanks
    Solarchaser
    I think tbh unless you are buying a tesla, then the categories are wrong.
    Up to 8k miles
    Bev or petrol
    8-12k miles
    Petrol or deisel
    12k+ miles
    Diesel

    Why? Mileage anxiety for Electric cars.

    My company deisel car will do 800 miles on a tank, there is no electric car can compete.
    And the charging network isn't there yet.

    As regards the co2 for running old ice cars, does it take into account the oil changes, engine parts like starter motors, alternators water pumps etc that have to be replaced on an aging ice car, that are not present on a new ev.
    What about suspension components, and brake parts, metal plates to replace the rusted ones, yes they need to be replaced, though less often on an EV, but they dont need replaced on a new car.

    Before the ev I have now, I had a 10 year old ice car, which I had to rebuild the engine on as it jumped the timing belt, do the new valves, gaskets, timing belt, tooling etc get counted in the co2?
    I also had to replace two suspension arms, a couple of drop links and a couple of shockers, is this counted in the old ice car co2?

    It's one of those things, that you could really go down a rabbit hole with.

    Finally I dont have an oil tank, so your quote that has me is wrong ape, it should be Joe, not me.
    • Hexane
    • By Hexane 5th Oct 19, 8:58 PM
    • 174 Posts
    • 201 Thanks
    Hexane
    I don't know if it's true or just internet 'fact' but lots of people seem to be saying new diesels won't last very long as the regs are too strict the manufacturers have not been able to build build long lasting engines. Could be nonsense but even the rumour puts me off diesels. Old diesels were pretty good I had a diesel car that hit 250,000 miles with no engine problems whatsoever
    Originally posted by GreatApe
    I too have regarded post-dieselgate diesels as a suspicious compromise... the idea of carrying round an entire additional tankful of additive, seems like a descent into madness. Of course, we now know, and most of us accept, that pre-dieselgate diesels driving round without such tacked-on modifications, were actually causing horrendous localised air quality pollution that will have contributed to deaths.
    7.25 kWp PV system (4.1kW WSW & 3.15kW ENE), Solis inverter, myenergi eddi & harvi for energy diversion to immersion heater. myenergi hub for Virtual Power Plant demand-side response trial.
    • ABrass
    • By ABrass 6th Oct 19, 1:44 AM
    • 239 Posts
    • 333 Thanks
    ABrass
    The more miles you do the better electric cars work out. The question is how predictable your milage will be. If you've got a 100 mile daily round trip commute then a Hyundai ioniq or Nissan leaf will be plenty and you'd save a fortune in fuel costs. Further is possible if you've got a charger at the middle.

    The inverse is also true. If you do piddling miles then a petrol car is going to be much cheaper and probably greener.
    • EricMears
    • By EricMears 6th Oct 19, 7:35 AM
    • 2,579 Posts
    • 4,462 Thanks
    EricMears
    ... the idea of carrying round an entire additional tankful of additive, seems like a descent into madness.
    Originally posted by Hexane
    That makes it sound as though the 'tank' was similar in size to the fuel tank ! It's actually only a litre or two.
    NE Derbyshire.
    4kWp S Facing 17.5deg slope (dormer roof).
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