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  • FIRST POST
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 5th Dec 16, 3:57 PM
    • 9,749Posts
    • 14,684Thanks
    Martyn1981
    On-grid domestic battery storage
    • #1
    • 5th Dec 16, 3:57 PM
    On-grid domestic battery storage 5th Dec 16 at 3:57 PM
    Hello!

    Right, as discussed elsewhere, battery storage for self generation (typically PV) is interesting (to some), and gathering momentum in the UK. So here's a thread to discuss it, and watch it develop.

    I've called it on-grid, as off-grid is so much more specialised. And domestic as commercial scale storage, or grid scale can be chatted about on the Green & Ethical energy issues thread.

    So, where are, well this article lists about 20 systems that are available or should be available soon:-

    Introducing CleanTechnica’s New Home Battery Overview Page

    Jumping straight in with personal opinions:-

    Economical - Not yet. Prices are falling fast, the range of products is expanding fast, and large numbers are being deployed in some countries, either because the price of leccy is high (Australia & Hawaii) or because subsidy schemes exist (Sweden & Germany).

    Where are we today. My needs are a 4kWh system. That's 4kWh of useable capacity, which would mean about 8kWh of lead acid (LA), or about 5kWh of lithium ion (Li-ion). My research has found batts in the high £2k and up range. I need the price to be nearer to £1.5k.

    The Tesla Powerwall II, installed is approx £6.5k, which works out at about £2.2k for 5kWh, but of course, it doesn't work quite like that, as smaller systems will cost proportionately more.

    Environmental - Tricky one this (to say the least). Until storage is needed, it's not environmental. Renewable energy (RE) generation currently displaces gas generation, which is a demand follower. Once gas generation is pushed down to zero (at times) we need storage, but we aren't there yet.

    However, to push gas generation down to zero, we need more RE, and to ensure it is viable/economic/profitable, we will need storage - chicken and egg situation.

    The advantage of storage to the environment, is to take peaks of RE and timeshift them to peaks in electricity demand. On a domestic level, this works quite well as PV generates during the day into the afternoon (or evening) depending on the month, so any stored leccy is available for the evening peak 5pm to 7pm.

    That's the background, and now here's a thread to discuss options, prices, economics, and watch things unfold. Enjoy.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
Page 70
    • EVandPV
    • By EVandPV 14th Nov 19, 8:52 AM
    • 114 Posts
    • 110 Thanks
    EVandPV
    Is this scheme V2G as well as V2H? If so, I can understand the loss of deemed export.

    I use a different company for FIT payments to minimise the risk of moving to metered export. It'll still take another 5 years of batteries to get my overall export down to 50%.
    Originally posted by 1961Nick
    The 2 year trial is V2G with the possibility of allowing you to use the charger for V2H thereafter but nothing confirmed yet.
    Scott in Fife, 3kwp pv south facing, Fronius inverter installed Jan 2012
    Renault Zoe R110 40kwh, Zappi 2 charger, arduino immersion controller
    4.8kwh Pylon battery storage with Lux ac controller due to be installed 17/12/19
    • JKenH
    • By JKenH 14th Nov 19, 9:36 AM
    • 1,150 Posts
    • 3,313 Thanks
    JKenH
    Is this scheme V2G as well as V2H? If so, I can understand the loss of deemed export.
    Originally posted by 1961Nick
    The V2H charger and the OVO V2G trial are two completely separate discussions taking place concurrently on the same thread, hence the confusion.
    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, Nissan Leaf (plus some ICEs )
    • orrery
    • By orrery 14th Nov 19, 10:20 AM
    • 633 Posts
    • 549 Thanks
    orrery
    The 2 year trial is V2G with the possibility of allowing you to use the charger for V2H thereafter but nothing confirmed yet.
    Originally posted by EVandPV

    Isn't this Chademo only? If so, you'd probably have to replace it with a CCS charger instead if you change your car as I can't see many future EVs having a Chademo connector.
    4kWp, Panels: 16 Hyundai HIS250MG, Inverter: SMA Sunny Boy 4000TL, SolarImmersion
    Location: Bedford, Roof: South East facing, 20 degree pitch
    Nissan Leaf, TADO Central Heating control
    • EVandPV
    • By EVandPV 14th Nov 19, 10:50 AM
    • 114 Posts
    • 110 Thanks
    EVandPV
    Isn't this Chademo only? If so, you'd probably have to replace it with a CCS charger instead if you change your car as I can't see many future EVs having a Chademo connector.
    Originally posted by orrery
    Yes, currently chademo only although it was mentioned that they're looking into a ccs option.
    Apparently, ccs is less efficient with V2G/V2H.
    Scott in Fife, 3kwp pv south facing, Fronius inverter installed Jan 2012
    Renault Zoe R110 40kwh, Zappi 2 charger, arduino immersion controller
    4.8kwh Pylon battery storage with Lux ac controller due to be installed 17/12/19
    • orrery
    • By orrery 14th Nov 19, 2:03 PM
    • 633 Posts
    • 549 Thanks
    orrery
    Apparently, ccs is less efficient with V2G/V2H.
    Originally posted by EVandPV

    Mmm. Not if your car only has a CCS connector, as most will have in the future ;-)


    I have a Leaf with Chademo, but one of the factors in deciding not to take part is that I don't want to be left with a Chademo charger, even if it is free, when I know the next car I have will almost certainly be CCS.
    4kWp, Panels: 16 Hyundai HIS250MG, Inverter: SMA Sunny Boy 4000TL, SolarImmersion
    Location: Bedford, Roof: South East facing, 20 degree pitch
    Nissan Leaf, TADO Central Heating control
    • ASavvyBuyer
    • By ASavvyBuyer 14th Nov 19, 7:04 PM
    • 1,062 Posts
    • 3,104 Thanks
    ASavvyBuyer
    Been looking again to see if there are any V2H inverter/chargers available now. Found this Quaser DC Charger, by Wallbox. Have asked for a quote.
    Originally posted by ASavvyBuyer
    Been a few days now and have not heard back from them after making an enquiry

    Has anyone else had any feedback from them?
    Rhondda Cynon Taf, 4kWp, W roof, 30° pitch, 16 x 8.33 Eternity 250w E+10 panels, Solar Edge SE4000-16A Inverter + P300 Optimisers. Inst Aug 2015.
    REUK Diverter, Toshiba RAS-10G2KVP-E Ultra High Efficiency Air Conditioner/Heat Pump, Kia Soul EV & 100% Green Electric Tariff.
    • JKenH
    • By JKenH 15th Nov 19, 5:50 AM
    • 1,150 Posts
    • 3,313 Thanks
    JKenH
    I haven’t contacted them yet but it looks as if they are only at preorder stage with a cost of £1200.

    Looking at the spec i see it is only rated IP54 whereas a Tesla battery is IP67. Can anyone comment please whether IP54 is sufficient for outdoor mounting?

    On the technical data sheet It says CCS or CHAdeMO but elsewhere just refers to CHAdeMO. The photos only show one cable so presumably it is either or. One would imagine other manufacturers will be bringing V2H chargers out now.
    Last edited by JKenH; 15-11-2019 at 6:35 AM. Reason: Removed part two of the post to another thread.
    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, Nissan Leaf (plus some ICEs )
    • JKenH
    • By JKenH 15th Nov 19, 6:02 AM
    • 1,150 Posts
    • 3,313 Thanks
    JKenH
    An interesting paper that suggests using V2G can reduce battery degradation.

    http://wrap.warwick.ac.uk/88018/13/WRAP-possibility-extending-lifetime-lithium-ion-batteries-Marco-2017.pdf

    In conclusion, we show that an EV con- nected to this smart-grid system can accommodate the demand of the power network with an increased share of clean renewable energy, but more profoundly that the smart grid is able to extend the life of the EV battery beyond the case in which there is no V2G.
    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, Nissan Leaf (plus some ICEs )
    • joefizz
    • By joefizz 15th Nov 19, 8:26 AM
    • 446 Posts
    • 388 Thanks
    joefizz
    Looking at the spec i see it is only rated IP54 whereas a Tesla battery is IP67. Can anyone comment please whether IP54 is sufficient for outdoor mounting?
    Originally posted by JKenH

    Depends where its mounted ;-)
    67 is immersion in water and full dust sealing, 54 is some dust ingress and can be splashed with water and not hit with say a hose or the like.


    My front porch outdoor socket is an old one IP54 (used to be on the back wall) so whilst it is outside it would rarely get direct rain and dust but would be liable to it.
    The socket on the outside of the garage is IP66 as it will get hit when power hosing (although dont recommend that, depends on install), raining etc etc.


    If you have a porch or carport then IP54 would probably do, just dont stick it on a weather facing wall. Or just put some other enclosing/small roof over/around it.
    • GreatApe
    • By GreatApe 23rd Nov 19, 2:54 PM
    • 4,074 Posts
    • 3,005 Thanks
    GreatApe
    Instead of batteries it would make more sense to pay the government the same sum to be allowed to use the grid as a battery for a period of 25 years

    So instead of paying £5k (or whatever it is) for a Tesla power wall pay HMRC £5k and it allows you to do net metering on a panel kit upto 6KWp. Government can use that £5k to deploy more offshore wind farms more rapidly

    Perhaps upto a million existing homes will take this up = £5 billion for wind farms and no need to build and install a million wasteful pollution heavy slow battery kits

    Could make all new build homes have to take up this option
    6KWp solar £5k + 6KWp virtual grid battery for £5k = £10k but most new builds would then have free electricity and heating for 25 years (but of course they'd be paying for this via their £10k higher mortgage)
    • orrery
    • By orrery 24th Nov 19, 11:08 AM
    • 633 Posts
    • 549 Thanks
    orrery
    Instead of batteries it would make more sense to pay the government the same sum to be allowed to use the grid as a battery for a period of 25 years.
    Originally posted by GreatApe

    It wouldn't do the same job. There are a good few benefits of grid connected batteries:
    - it smooths the supply, so the generators don't need to supply the peak, just the average
    - it delivers power to where you need it (distributed around the housing and small industrial estates) and prevents requiring grid connection upgrades where peak demand exceeds existing capacity
    - it protects the grid at times of outages (like the recent coincidental failure of the Little Barford station and the east coast lightening strike)


    Moving to increased renewable generation requires steadily increasing facilities for short, medium and long term storage.
    Last edited by orrery; 29-11-2019 at 6:08 PM. Reason: Spelling and formatting
    4kWp, Panels: 16 Hyundai HIS250MG, Inverter: SMA Sunny Boy 4000TL, SolarImmersion
    Location: Bedford, Roof: South East facing, 20 degree pitch
    Nissan Leaf, TADO Central Heating control
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 25th Nov 19, 12:58 PM
    • 9,749 Posts
    • 14,684 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Extract from this weeks Carbon Commentary newsletter:

    4, Household PV, battery, electric car. Sonnen, the Shell-owned battery supplier with large operations in several countries including Australia and the US, announced a new offer for German customers. It will rent a solar system, battery, electricity and electric car to households for a fixed monthly fee that is said to be no higher than the customer’s current bill. The minimum term for the car is just six months, helping to reduce customer anxieties over any risk from acquiring an EV. As with Green Mountain Power (note 1), the finances work for Sonnen because it controls when the battery discharges and charges.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Seath
    • By Seath 27th Nov 19, 5:45 PM
    • 2 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Seath
    Nissan leaf powerwall and Using 1 of 2 strings
    Hi all,
    Wonder if anybody has any experience with this challenge.
    I am working on a project for a friend who has purchased a gen 1 24kwh Nissan leaf battery batch. He has a huge solar array for uk domestic of 38 panels of 18 panels east and 20 panels west, using micro-inverters. He has purchased a 5kwp hybrid inverter with the intention of using the east facing array which gives 6.45kwp to charge the battery bank. The issue we are having is that in order to retain full FIT hence recording generation from both strings, it would need either an additional single phase solar generation meter or maybe a 4 wire three phase solar generation meter.
    Thanks for any inspiration
    • 1961Nick
    • By 1961Nick 27th Nov 19, 10:17 PM
    • 1,168 Posts
    • 3,789 Thanks
    1961Nick
    Hi all,
    Wonder if anybody has any experience with this challenge.
    I am working on a project for a friend who has purchased a gen 1 24kwh Nissan leaf battery batch. He has a huge solar array for uk domestic of 38 panels of 18 panels east and 20 panels west, using micro-inverters. He has purchased a 5kwp hybrid inverter with the intention of using the east facing array which gives 6.45kwp to charge the battery bank. The issue we are having is that in order to retain full FIT hence recording generation from both strings, it would need either an additional single phase solar generation meter or maybe a 4 wire three phase solar generation meter.
    Thanks for any inspiration
    Originally posted by Seath
    My initial thoughts are that an AC inverter harvesting power from both strings would be a better option as it wouldn't affect the FIT.

    How do you plan to install the hybrid inverter to a string that already has micro inverters?
    4kWp (black/black) - Sofar Inverter - SSE(141°) - 30° pitch - North Lincs
    Installed June 2013 - PVGIS = 3400

    Sofar ME3000SP Inverter & 5 x Pylontech US2000B Plus Batteries - 12kWh
    • Seath
    • By Seath 28th Nov 19, 6:09 PM
    • 2 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Seath
    Yes, upgrading the hybrid inverter is one way, an expensive way!
    Regarding the microinverters - It wasn't until I looked at what Miles had bought that alarm bells started ringing. However the get around for having AC output from the panels was to use the inverters 'AC generator input terminals.
    • 1961Nick
    • By 1961Nick 28th Nov 19, 11:15 PM
    • 1,168 Posts
    • 3,789 Thanks
    1961Nick
    Yes, upgrading the hybrid inverter is one way, an expensive way!
    Regarding the microinverters - It wasn't until I looked at what Miles had bought that alarm bells started ringing. However the get around for having AC output from the panels was to use the inverters 'AC generator input terminals.
    Originally posted by Seath
    In that case, can't you fit the inverter on the grid side of the generation meter?
    4kWp (black/black) - Sofar Inverter - SSE(141°) - 30° pitch - North Lincs
    Installed June 2013 - PVGIS = 3400

    Sofar ME3000SP Inverter & 5 x Pylontech US2000B Plus Batteries - 12kWh
    • Coastalwatch
    • By Coastalwatch 30th Nov 19, 5:16 PM
    • 783 Posts
    • 3,294 Thanks
    Coastalwatch
    Apologies if this has been posted previously but trawling through the OVO site I came across the link below. Seems like they are offering a 5kW Sonnen battery free to anyone prepared to sign up for a two year trial. The only downside being that you have to reside in Linconshire.


    https://www.ovoenergy.com/home-energy-storage
    East coast, lat 51.97. 8.26kw SSE, 23° pitch + 0.59kw WSW vertical. Nissan Leaf plus one dirty diesel. Still waiting for V2H and home storage to become available at sensible cost.
    • joefizz
    • By joefizz 2nd Dec 19, 12:51 PM
    • 446 Posts
    • 388 Thanks
    joefizz
    Apologies if this has been posted previously but trawling through the OVO site I came across the link below. Seems like they are offering a 5kW Sonnen battery free to anyone prepared to sign up for a two year trial. The only downside being that you have to reside in Linconshire.


    https://www.ovoenergy.com/home-energy-storage
    Originally posted by Coastalwatch

    That looks like a great deal, particularly as during the summer months its pretty much all yours and 5kw should be enough to see most people through the night during the summer and even out the daytime use.


    Entering the twilight zone over here for a month, although to be fair most of the weekends 5kwh went into the batteries as I was out so at least mostly everything I generate at the minute is being used at home.
    Back to the fast kettle as of 2 weeks ago, no point using the slow low start one now as theres usually not enough in the battery to make it worthwhile waiting ;-)
    • EVandPV
    • By EVandPV 2nd Dec 19, 4:31 PM
    • 114 Posts
    • 110 Thanks
    EVandPV
    Apologies if this has been posted previously but trawling through the OVO site I came across the link below. Seems like they are offering a 5kW Sonnen battery free to anyone prepared to sign up for a two year trial. The only downside being that you have to reside in Linconshire.


    https://www.ovoenergy.com/home-energy-storage
    Originally posted by Coastalwatch
    How come all these trials are only in the the south east of England ??
    Not that I'm bitter or anything.
    Scott in Fife, 3kwp pv south facing, Fronius inverter installed Jan 2012
    Renault Zoe R110 40kwh, Zappi 2 charger, arduino immersion controller
    4.8kwh Pylon battery storage with Lux ac controller due to be installed 17/12/19
    • pinnks
    • By pinnks 2nd Dec 19, 6:45 PM
    • 758 Posts
    • 1,577 Thanks
    pinnks
    I know you live "north of the border" but I am not sure most of us would call Lincolnshire the south east of the UK as a whole, let alone just England
    Wiltshire - 5.25kWp
    3.5kWp: 14 x Phono Solar 250 Onyx, Sunny Boy 4000TL, WSW 40 degrees, June 2013
    1.75kWp: 7 x Phono Solar 250 Onyx, Sunny Boy 1600TL, SSE 45 degrees, March 2014
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