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  • FIRST POST
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 6th Jan 11, 7:18 PM
    • 1,359Posts
    • 748Thanks
    lovesgshp
    Ground Source Heat Pumps
    • #1
    • 6th Jan 11, 7:18 PM
    Ground Source Heat Pumps 6th Jan 11 at 7:18 PM
    If anyone wants info on these, then please let me know, as have had one for over 5 years.
Page 4
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 1st Feb 11, 5:59 PM
    • 1,359 Posts
    • 748 Thanks
    lovesgshp
    It's nice to hear that you are so happy with your GSHP - however did you source it from Ice Energy as you have recommended?
    I have installed the 11Kw model in my house and I am presently in conversation with thier tech support group to explain why my electricity bill has gone through the roof. Since I started logging its performance at the beggining of December my electricity consumption is over 1000!

    I need to engage with someone who not only knows how this technology works but can examine my house and tell my if my system IS as I am beginning to suspect, grossly under-sized.
    If you can help I will be grateful -or if not potentially broke by September:-)
    Originally posted by JDoddY
    I never recommended Ice Energy and they did not supply or fit my unit here in Italy 5 years ago, just mentioned it was a long standing supplier in the UK and I have no relation with it at all.
    If you can supply me with the details as I have asked Nosha, then I will try to help you out.
    Give me house size and type of heating
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 1st Feb 11, 6:05 PM
    • 28,031 Posts
    • 13,878 Thanks
    Cardew
    The output on that particular unit is 10.7Kw @35C. At 50C this decreases to 10.1 Kw. The company that installed it, ( who have been going for a number of years ) would have calculated the thermal requirements for the house, based on insulation and thermal loss so therefore the pump should be sized correctly.
    A 16.7 Kw output pump requires 3.7Kw input @ 35C and 4.9Kw @ 50C.
    I deal with these units on a daily basis, so I hope you can understand I have a lot of knowledge about them.
    Originally posted by Geotherm
    As posted earlier, in the 2 months on that tariff the OP has used approx 7,000kWh. If we 'allow' 1,000kWh for normal electrical consumption that is approx 6,000kWh taken by the GSHP.

    2 months = 61 days = 1464 hours.

    So the GSHP has used an average over 4kWh for every hour on a 24/7 basis.
  • dane-katie
    I think, that we should wait until we get the readings and then go from there. It is no good just questioning without the basic information.
    I do agree with your comment regarding installers who do not know what they are talking about, but this is the norm with companies that jump on the bandwagon. Ice energy are a long established UK company. IVT is also one of the largest European suppliers of heat pumps.
    Originally posted by Geotherm
    Is there any other companies other than Ice Energy that you can recommend? i dont want to end up with a company selling us a GSHP when infact we dont really need it?

    Also i dont have underfloor heating will this be a problem?

    Is a Bipolar bear

  • paceinternet
    Geotherm, I agree with those comments about that supplier and equipment.
    But that model has the potential to have 3,6 or 9kw of additional resistance heating support.
    If it is undersized for whatever reason, it will be running a lot more kw.
    I haven't followed all this thread.
    Do we know if the nosha123 and jdoddy systems have additional heaters?
    Maybe they can let us know.
    • nosha123
    • By nosha123 1st Feb 11, 6:06 PM
    • 39 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    nosha123
    JDoddy I am most intrigued to hear your story!!! Sounds like we are in the same boat here.. and with the same supplier!
    I have emailed them already to ask for someone to do a site visit and check the set up. We had three leaks over Xmas too which didnt help as the whole system shut down.
    Will get my readings and see what Geotherm recommends... Each day that goes by is currently costing us 10!!!!!
    I suggest you get your readings too and see what the others here recommend!
    Very interesting to have found you though!!!
    • nosha123
    • By nosha123 1st Feb 11, 6:08 PM
    • 39 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    nosha123
    and to paceinternet - no.. we have no additional heaters!

    More info will follow in the morning!
    Standby all!
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 1st Feb 11, 6:18 PM
    • 1,359 Posts
    • 748 Thanks
    lovesgshp
    As posted earlier, in the 2 months on that tariff the OP has used approx 7,000kWh. If we 'allow' 1,000kWh for normal electrical consumption that is approx 6,000kWh taken by the GSHP.

    2 months = 61 days = 1464 hours.

    So the GSHP has used an average over 4kWh for every hour on a 24/7 basis.
    Originally posted by Cardew
    Cardew.
    I need the pump data, as without it there is no way that I can work out if there is a problem or not. 7000kw in 2 months is far too high.
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 1st Feb 11, 6:23 PM
    • 1,359 Posts
    • 748 Thanks
    lovesgshp
    Geotherm, I agree with those comments about that supplier and equipment.
    But that model has the potential to have 3,6 or 9kw of additional resistance heating support.
    If it is undersized for whatever reason, it will be running a lot more kw.
    I haven't followed all this thread.
    Do we know if the nosha123 and jdoddy systems have additional heaters?
    Maybe they can let us know.
    Originally posted by paceinternet
    I know that the heater boost is 3/6/9 kw, that is why I need the readings from menu 7 on the pump. We have only used 24hrs over 5 years with additional heat.
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 1st Feb 11, 6:31 PM
    • 1,359 Posts
    • 748 Thanks
    lovesgshp
    Is there any other companies other than Ice Energy that you can recommend? i dont want to end up with a company selling us a GSHP when infact we dont really need it?

    Also i dont have underfloor heating will this be a problem?
    Originally posted by dane-katie
    Sorry dane-katie, I do not know many suppliers in the UK. I would look up GSHP companies on the internet, and try to see those who have been established for a number of years.
    A correctly sized GSHP should be able to supply radiator heating, just make sure that it can cope with feed temperatures up to 65C.
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 1st Feb 11, 8:45 PM
    • 28,031 Posts
    • 13,878 Thanks
    Cardew
    and to paceinternet - no.. we have no additional heaters!
    Originally posted by nosha123
    What paceinternet means is the heat pump itself having boosting heaters.

    Most heat pump systems have 'normal' heaters (like immersion heaters) to provide additional heating when the heat pump cannot cope with the load.

    The commonest cause of very high electricity bills is that a lot of the heating demand is being satisfied by these heaters.

    Why these heaters are cutting in, Geotherm hopefully will be able to deduce from the info you supply
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 1st Feb 11, 9:05 PM
    • 1,359 Posts
    • 748 Thanks
    lovesgshp
    This is a report that I completed about 2 weeks ago on a system that had a problem. It was resolved within 24 hrs. 14Kw output unit, 2 thermostatic controlled zones in the house 19C main floor/ 17C upper floor ..... 240 sq mtr, underfloor heating, buffer tank. DHW set at 50C.
    For explanation, the unit was installed late Dec 2009.GT6 is compressor running temp, GT8/GT9 are heat transfer fluid temperatures. GT10/GT11 are ground loops in/out. GL= ground loop

    Initial visit findings

    Ground loop pressure 0 Bar
    Alarm panel showing LP multiple times

    When getting initial operation on the system the following
    DHW:
    GT6 66.7
    GT8 readings from 52.6 - 54.0 - 55.2
    GT9 " " 48.9 - 50.1 - 50.6
    GT10/11 5.4 in/ 2.4 out

    GL pressure increased to 2 Bar
    Heating:
    GT6 65.8 71.9 72.6
    GT8 33.3 41.9 42.5
    GT9 27.6 37.4 38.1
    GT10 5.4 - 5.0
    GT11 5.0 - 1.0

    System left running as appeared to be okay, but the following alarms activated that evening:
    16.28 LP
    16.38 High HTF Delta
    17.41 LP
    19.07 LP
    At that point the unit was shut down and returned to LPG gas heating instead of using the electric cartridge.

    Fri 14th Jan

    DHW reset to 53C
    GT6 73.1 - 74.8
    GT8 55.8 - 55.6
    GT9 52.1 - 52.4


    GL Pressure 1.Bar
    With HTF pump set on level 2 speed the following for heating:
    GT6 78.3 reducing to 72.1
    GT8 36.1 - 37.0
    GT9 31.0 - 32.8

    Speed reset on HTF pump to level 1:

    Heating cycle: ( untimed )
    GT6 72.1 72.6 72.9
    GT8 41.5 41.8 41.8
    GT9 33.8 34.1 34.1
    GT10 5.2 5.0 4.9
    GT11 1.5 1.4 1.3

    2nd test @14.00 hrs on DHW

    GT6 76.7 80.7 84.0 87.3 89.2 Off
    GT8 51.0 55.6 57.2 58.3 59.7
    GT9 47.8 50.3 50.9 53.0 54.6

    Heating: On 27.4/Off 32.4. Readings @ 5 min intervals
    GT6 57.0 63.5 66.9 69.4 71.2
    GT8 36.1 37.7 39.2 40.2 41.1
    GT9 28.5 30.0 31.4 32.7 33.8
    GT10 5.7 5.5 5.4 4.9 4.8
    GT11 1.7 1.7 1.6 1.2 1.2


    Final test @ 16.00 hrs. Heating only @5 min intervals

    Off temp 33.1C

    GT6 59.7 63.2 65.0 67.7 70.2
    GT8 37.2 38.4 38.9 40.0 41.1
    GT9 29.4 30.2 30.8 32.0 33.2
    GT10 5.7 5.6 5.6 5.3 5.0
    GT11 1.7 1.6 1.6 1.4 1.1

    Total pump running time since installation = 2072 hrs
    GL flow rate = 14ltr min
    % DHW/ Heating = 16/84%
    GL pressure left @ 1.2 Bar

    Electrical boost over 1 year 6 hours
    Last edited by lovesgshp; 01-02-2011 at 9:08 PM. Reason: forgot electric boost
    • nosha123
    • By nosha123 2nd Feb 11, 10:05 AM
    • 39 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    nosha123
    morning all
    Looking at the above readings from geotherm I fear I may not have all of mine.. Perhaps i should have scrolled down to get other GT readings.. but here is a start. If I have done it wrong I can amend it tomorrow!
    Menu 1.1
    5.0 temp incr/decr
    Menu 1.2
    0.0 fine-tune
    Menu 1.3
    Out 20 curve 20 Out 15 curve 24
    Menu 1.10
    21.0
    Menu 1.11
    5 room sens influence

    Menu 3.0
    Temp readings
    return radiators GT1
    Off 36.0 now 35.4
    out GT2 4.3
    Hot water GT3
    tgt 5.0 now 49.1 (the 49.1 might be an error.. I cant read my scribbled properly and we were having a 'marital' over who was doing the button pushing!!!)

    Menu 7.1 op time readings
    no of hours in op 1965h (This sounds horrific! Is this the no of hours immersion is kicking in?)

    Menu 7.2
    HP DHW-Rad% 18% DHW 82% RAD

    Menu 7.3
    Add heat hours 410h (or maybe this is the immersion???)

    and the GT readings
    GT1 return raditator off 36.0 now 35.6
    GT2 Out 4.3
    GT3 Hot Water. Tgt 51.0 Now 49.1
    GT5 Room. Tgt 21.0 Now 20.8
    GT6 Compressor 80.0
    GT8 Heat trfluid out 40.5
    GT9 Heat trfluid in 33.8
    GT10 Ht trfld (coll) in -0.7
    GT11 Htrfld (coll) out -3.8

    Alarms Menu 11.0
    There were a few... Initally looked like they were dated. As first reading starts 101210 (but then subsequent readings showed 101209)
    All the alarm messages were "exceeded temp heat carrier inlet"


    On boxing day we discovered a leak.. there was glycol all over the garage floor and an 'O-ring' had changed shape so wasnt maintaining a seal. We called the emergency number and was told if you put the O ring into hot water it will revert to normal shape. This leak then happened another two times before an engineer could get to us to fill the glycol back up and to change the faulty part for one that doesnt alter shape!!!! We were not happy!!!! Has since been fine - but my husband (who is a builder and also does plumbing etc) accidentally let some of the gas out of the compressor. Ice Energy told us there are only 4 men in the UK who can top it up and it costs 500. Apparently we can get an air-con or refrigerator engineer to do it also - and likely for less than 500. We were told the system will not be as efficient without the right amount of gas in the compressor so I am trying now to find someone who can do this urgently!

    There I think that is all.. unless of course I am missing several readings like you have posted above!
    Thanks in advance!!
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 2nd Feb 11, 12:49 PM
    • 1,359 Posts
    • 748 Thanks
    lovesgshp
    My thoughts on your system
    Please see my comments below.


    morning all
    Looking at the above readings from geotherm I fear I may not have all of mine.. Perhaps i should have scrolled down to get other GT readings.. but here is a start. If I have done it wrong I can amend it tomorrow!
    Menu 1.1
    5.0 temp incr/decr
    This would normally be 4 for a underfloor system, unless you have heated towel rails, or a radiator linked in.
    Menu 1.2
    0.0 fine-tune
    Menu 1.3
    Out 20 curve 20 Out 15 curve 24
    Looks OK
    Menu 1.10
    21.0
    Menu 1.11
    5 room sens influence
    Suggest change to 6 or7 as outside sensor may be giving too much influence.

    Menu 3.0
    Temp readings
    return radiators GT1
    Off 36.0 now 35.4
    out GT2 4.3
    Hot water GT3
    tgt 5.0 now 49.1 (the 49.1 might be an error.. I cant read my scribbled properly and we were having a 'marital' over who was doing the button pushing!!!)
    readings look ok

    Menu 7.1 op time readings
    no of hours in op 1965h (This sounds horrific! Is this the no of hours immersion is kicking in?)
    Far too high, this is only compressor use, you should be looking @ circa 12 -14 hrs per day in the winter

    Menu 7.2
    HP DHW-Rad% 18% DHW 82% RAD
    % are about right

    Menu 7.3
    Add heat hours 410h (or maybe this is the immersion???)
    Again far too high for a few month old installation. Without you going into the service menu, then it is impossible to see the immersion connection Kw is set at. Do you know how to access that menu?

    and the GT readings
    GT1 return raditator off 36.0 now 35.6
    GT2 Out 4.3
    GT3 Hot Water. Tgt 51.0 Now 49.1
    GT5 Room. Tgt 21.0 Now 20.8
    GT6 Compressor 80.0
    GT8 Heat trfluid out 40.5
    GT9 Heat trfluid in 33.8
    GT10 Ht trfld (coll) in -0.7
    GT11 Htrfld (coll) out -3.8
    The readings above, all look within the operating parameters, apart from GT10/11 which look low for the external temp, although the delta @ 3C is ok. My view is that as the room temp is set @ 21C then combined with the operating times, the ground loops are recharging too slowly, due to that the electrical backup is kicking in too often.
    Is there a flow valve on the collectors, that you depress to give the flow rate. It normally pops a disc up to show how many litres min going through the ground loop?

    Alarms Menu 11.0
    There were a few... Initally looked like they were dated. As first reading starts 101210 (but then subsequent readings showed 101209)
    All the alarm messages were "exceeded temp heat carrier inlet"
    The last recorded alarm is shown first, so 10/12/10 is the last time there was a problem. Have you cleaned the internal filter since the installation, plus the ground loop filter?


    On boxing day we discovered a leak.. there was glycol all over the garage floor and an 'O-ring' had changed shape so wasnt maintaining a seal. We called the emergency number and was told if you put the O ring into hot water it will revert to normal shape. This leak then happened another two times before an engineer could get to us to fill the glycol back up and to change the faulty part for one that doesnt alter shape!!!! We were not happy!!!! Has since been fine - but my husband (who is a builder and also does plumbing etc) accidentally let some of the gas out of the compressor. Ice Energy told us there are only 4 men in the UK who can top it up and it costs 500. Apparently we can get an air-con or refrigerator engineer to do it also - and likely for less than 500. We were told the system will not be as efficient without the right amount of gas in the compressor so I am trying now to find someone who can do this urgently!
    A refrigeration engineer should be able to do this without any problem.

    There I think that is all.. unless of course I am missing several readings like you have posted above!
    Thanks in advance!!
    Originally posted by nosha123
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 2nd Feb 11, 1:41 PM
    • 1,359 Posts
    • 748 Thanks
    lovesgshp
    A few other thoughts.
    Can you go into menu 2 for the DHW and tell me if what the peak boost timer is set at? This is the one that does the disinfection cycle.
    You also said that you had heating timers on, are you reducing the temp in the house, or using the pump timer settings. If using the pump return temp setting it should not be below 1.5C for underfloor systems, as you will use much more power to return to a normal level.
    Will you also give me a 24hr reading from menu 7 from today to the same time tomorrow.
    Last edited by lovesgshp; 02-02-2011 at 1:54 PM.
    • nosha123
    • By nosha123 2nd Feb 11, 2:16 PM
    • 39 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    nosha123
    Wow.. thanks Geotherm
    First point yes we do have three heated towel rails.

    Second point: would the fact we have lost some gas in the compressor be affecting this reading? Ice Energy want 420 to re-gas it and say its a full day's site visit (inc travel from up north). Can I get any refrigeration engineer to do this or will I have to use Ice Energy? They say they would RATHER they did it. but I bet its cheaper elsewhere!

    Dont know how to access the service menu - but can read manual tonight. What should I be looking for?

    Room temps are now all set lower - and operating at about 19.5.

    Will ask husband about flow rate valves tonight.

    Re alarms.. the reading 101210 doesnt seem to be a 'date' as the next entry I scrolled to was 101209 followed by 101208 and we only had it commissioned a few months ago! From what I understand filters have been cleaned and were full of muck!

    Will get other readings for you tonight if I can work out how!

    Thanks so much!
    • nosha123
    • By nosha123 2nd Feb 11, 2:56 PM
    • 39 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    nosha123
    Do you have a gut reaction or slight inkling as to what our problem might be?
    I cant bear to be sat here at work.. I can almost hear my bank account emptying!!!! ching ching ching ching
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 2nd Feb 11, 2:59 PM
    • 1,359 Posts
    • 748 Thanks
    lovesgshp
    Suggestions
    Hope a few of these answers help

    Wow.. thanks Geotherm
    First point yes we do have three heated towel rails.
    Suggest you turn the menu in 1 down to 4.5

    Second point: would the fact we have lost some gas in the compressor be affecting this reading? Ice Energy want 420 to re-gas it and say its a full day's site visit (inc travel from up north). Can I get any refrigeration engineer to do this or will I have to use Ice Energy? They say they would RATHER they did it. but I bet its cheaper elsewhere!
    Any refrigeration engineer should be able to recharge the system. Remember, this is only a refrigerator working in reverse as such.

    Dont know how to access the service menu - but can read manual tonight. What should I be looking for?
    Hold down the far right button on the control panel for approx 20 secs. I will let you know what to check in menu 5 of that control in another post

    Room temps are now all set lower - and operating at about 19.5.
    OK

    Will ask husband about flow rate valves tonight.
    Thanks

    Re alarms.. the reading 101210 doesnt seem to be a 'date' as the next entry I scrolled to was 101209 followed by 101208 and we only had it commissioned a few months ago! From what I understand filters have been cleaned and were full of muck!
    Suggest you recheck the filters again. The alarms are latest first on the menu, so 101210 relates to the 10th Dec 2010. If the date is set correctly, then this would be the last recorded.

    Will get other readings for you tonight if I can work out how!
    Thanks, if any problems with anything let me know

    Thanks so much!
    Originally posted by nosha123
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 2nd Feb 11, 3:24 PM
    • 1,359 Posts
    • 748 Thanks
    lovesgshp
    Do you have a gut reaction or slight inkling as to what our problem might be?
    I cant bear to be sat here at work.. I can almost hear my bank account emptying!!!! ching ching ching ching
    Originally posted by nosha123
    Still working on it!!!
    Have you the thermal analysis data from Ice Energy for the system size?
    Last edited by lovesgshp; 02-02-2011 at 3:29 PM.
    • nosha123
    • By nosha123 2nd Feb 11, 3:29 PM
    • 39 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    nosha123
    Sorry!!! Wasnt hounding you!! if thats how it sounded... its a bloody relief to have found someone who REALLY knows their stuff!!!! and can help us!!
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 2nd Feb 11, 3:32 PM
    • 1,359 Posts
    • 748 Thanks
    lovesgshp
    Sorry!!! Wasnt hounding you!! if thats how it sounded... its a bloody relief to have found someone who REALLY knows their stuff!!!! and can help us!!
    Originally posted by nosha123
    No problem, please dont worry, hopefully I can help, even though 1000 miles away!!
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