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  • FIRST POST
    • JKenH
    • By JKenH 18th Nov 19, 5:18 PM
    • 1,171Posts
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    JKenH
    The Alternative Green Energy Thread
    • #1
    • 18th Nov 19, 5:18 PM
    The Alternative Green Energy Thread 18th Nov 19 at 5:18 PM
    In an attempt to maintain harmony on Martyn1981’s Green, Ethical, Energy issues in the news thread, Mart and I have agreed that I will no longer contribute to that thread but instead start a separate thread which Mart has agreed not to participate on.

    The intention of the thread is that green energy issues can be discussed in an open and less prescriptive manner. While most people will continue to use the original thread you are free to post on here on any green energy topic including electric cars.

    To avoid some of the acrimony that has arisen on the original thread could I request please that contributors endeavour to be courteous in their posts and their language and avoid pejorative comments. If you want to be rude and use bad language please post elsewhere. Thank you.
    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, Nissan Leaf (plus some ICEs )
Page 1
    • JKenH
    • By JKenH 18th Nov 19, 5:21 PM
    • 1,171 Posts
    • 3,339 Thanks
    JKenH
    • #2
    • 18th Nov 19, 5:21 PM
    • #2
    • 18th Nov 19, 5:21 PM
    Octopus Investments has said it intends to list an infrastructure trust in London that will purchase and operate clean energy assets, such as wind and solar farms, in an attempt to raise around £250m.


    Initially, the company will direct 60pc of its investments in to assets that are already operational, and the other 40pc will go on building things like solar farms from scratch.



    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/11/17/octopus-float-clean-infrastructure-trust/
    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, Nissan Leaf (plus some ICEs )
    • JKenH
    • By JKenH 18th Nov 19, 5:50 PM
    • 1,171 Posts
    • 3,339 Thanks
    JKenH
    • #3
    • 18th Nov 19, 5:50 PM
    • #3
    • 18th Nov 19, 5:50 PM
    It’s old fogies like me who suffer from range anxiety while the young aren’t so worried. I suppose nothing changes; when I was in my early twenties I used to run out of petrol regularly and have to hitch a lift to and from a filling station so it is no surprise that having a flat battery when there is free recovery is no big deal for the young.

    New research by professional services firm KPMG has found that the public’s reluctance towards electric vehicles is mainly an issue for the over 55s. The survey found that when considering the purchase of an electric car, range anxiety (which is the distance the car can travel on one charge) was the top concern for 75% of people over the age of 55. However, less than half (40%) of those surveyed between the ages of 18-34 shared the same worry.

    ...those aged 18-34 were more concerned with the time it takes to charge, than how far one charge would take them.


    https://home.kpmg/uk/en/home/media/press-releases/2019/11/over-55-s-reluctant-to-join-electric-vehicle-revolution-kpmg-survey-finds.html
    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, Nissan Leaf (plus some ICEs )
    • 1961Nick
    • By 1961Nick 18th Nov 19, 9:47 PM
    • 1,184 Posts
    • 3,841 Thanks
    1961Nick
    • #4
    • 18th Nov 19, 9:47 PM
    • #4
    • 18th Nov 19, 9:47 PM
    Octopus Investments has said it intends to list an infrastructure trust in London that will purchase and operate clean energy assets, such as wind and solar farms, in an attempt to raise around £250m.


    Initially, the company will direct 60pc of its investments in to assets that are already operational, and the other 40pc will go on building things like solar farms from scratch.



    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/11/17/octopus-float-clean-infrastructure-trust/
    Originally posted by JKenH
    It’s encouraging to see a smaller energy company actually adding to RE generation rather than just greenwashing. Energy consumption shouldn’t be guilt free until it’s truly green & we’re a long way from that goal ... especially with gas.
    4kWp (black/black) - Sofar Inverter - SSE(141°) - 30° pitch - North Lincs
    Installed June 2013 - PVGIS = 3400

    Sofar ME3000SP Inverter & 5 x Pylontech US2000B Plus Batteries - 12kWh
    • JKenH
    • By JKenH 19th Nov 19, 7:21 AM
    • 1,171 Posts
    • 3,339 Thanks
    JKenH
    • #5
    • 19th Nov 19, 7:21 AM
    • #5
    • 19th Nov 19, 7:21 AM
    PHEV sales are soaring in Germany

    https://cleantechnica.com/2019/11/17/open-the-plug-in-hybrid-floodgates-germany-ev-sales-report/

    Something clicked in the German plug-in vehicle market after the summer holidays. The market had a record month (9,452 registrations) in September, and then October came and set a new record, this time 26% above the previous one! 11,926 plug-in electric vehicles (PEVs) were registered, more than doubling last year’s result.
    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, Nissan Leaf (plus some ICEs )
    • 1961Nick
    • By 1961Nick 19th Nov 19, 10:48 AM
    • 1,184 Posts
    • 3,841 Thanks
    1961Nick
    • #6
    • 19th Nov 19, 10:48 AM
    • #6
    • 19th Nov 19, 10:48 AM
    PHEV sales are soaring in Germany

    https://cleantechnica.com/2019/11/17/open-the-plug-in-hybrid-floodgates-germany-ev-sales-report/

    Something clicked in the German plug-in vehicle market after the summer holidays. The market had a record month (9,452 registrations) in September, and then October came and set a new record, this time 26% above the previous one! 11,926 plug-in electric vehicles (PEVs) were registered, more than doubling last year’s result.
    Originally posted by JKenH
    PHEV sales in Germany have taken off because they're replacing traditional 3.0 litre 6 cylinder vehicles. The Mercedes E300 diesel makes 286bhp whereas the E300de makes 316bhp. In addition, the hybrid costs less to purchase & incurs lower taxes.
    4kWp (black/black) - Sofar Inverter - SSE(141°) - 30° pitch - North Lincs
    Installed June 2013 - PVGIS = 3400

    Sofar ME3000SP Inverter & 5 x Pylontech US2000B Plus Batteries - 12kWh
    • JKenH
    • By JKenH 19th Nov 19, 11:28 AM
    • 1,171 Posts
    • 3,339 Thanks
    JKenH
    • #7
    • 19th Nov 19, 11:28 AM
    • #7
    • 19th Nov 19, 11:28 AM
    PHEV sales in the UK had recovered well after the initial phase of Grant removal a year ago and sales were on a par with BEVs so far in 2019. I wonder what effect the the last of the hybrids losing their grants just over a week ago will have. To be fair the old scheme was being abused as they were being bought for tax rather than fuel saving reasons. I wouldn’t be surprised if the grants on BEVS aren’t cut again soon.


    Jesse Norman said in May:

    “I expect the prices of electric cars to come down dramatically in the same way, and I’m not prepared to spend tax payers’ money incentivising technology that doesn’t reflect this changing market.”

    Personally I think PHEVs are a great idea and I suspect a lot of other oldies would say the same.
    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, Nissan Leaf (plus some ICEs )
    • 1961Nick
    • By 1961Nick 19th Nov 19, 12:17 PM
    • 1,184 Posts
    • 3,841 Thanks
    1961Nick
    • #8
    • 19th Nov 19, 12:17 PM
    • #8
    • 19th Nov 19, 12:17 PM
    PHEV sales in the UK had recovered well after the initial phase of Grant removal a year ago and sales were on a par with BEVs so far in 2019. I wonder what effect the the last of the hybrids losing their grants just over a week ago will have. To be fair the old scheme was being abused as they were being bought for tax rather than fuel saving reasons. I wouldn’t be surprised if the grants on BEVS aren’t cut again soon.


    Jesse Norman said in May:

    “I expect the prices of electric cars to come down dramatically in the same way, and I’m not prepared to spend tax payers’ money incentivising technology that doesn’t reflect this changing market.”

    Personally I think PHEVs are a great idea and I suspect a lot of other oldies would say the same.
    Originally posted by JKenH
    Contract hire companies have remarked upon the number of cars that have been returned with the charging cable still inside the sealed bag! Clearly giving someone a tax incentive to lug 200kg of batteries & sundries around for 3 years is crazy ... especially as it's probably using more fuel than the equivalent ICE vehicle.

    When do you get your V2H charging station installed?
    4kWp (black/black) - Sofar Inverter - SSE(141°) - 30° pitch - North Lincs
    Installed June 2013 - PVGIS = 3400

    Sofar ME3000SP Inverter & 5 x Pylontech US2000B Plus Batteries - 12kWh
    • EricMears
    • By EricMears 19th Nov 19, 12:23 PM
    • 2,581 Posts
    • 4,463 Thanks
    EricMears
    • #9
    • 19th Nov 19, 12:23 PM
    • #9
    • 19th Nov 19, 12:23 PM
    I wouldn’t be surprised if the grants on BEVS aren’t cut again soon.
    Originally posted by JKenH
    I'm sure the BEV incentives were only ever meant as a 'pump priming attempt' just as the FIT scheme was designed to increase the take-up of RE and was removed when price reductions had made it redundant.

    I hope BEV prices do indeed drop in response to increased demand and would therefore welcome reduction or even removal of artificial subsidies.
    NE Derbyshire.
    4kWp S Facing 17.5deg slope (dormer roof).
    • JKenH
    • By JKenH 19th Nov 19, 2:37 PM
    • 1,171 Posts
    • 3,339 Thanks
    JKenH
    I'm sure the BEV incentives were only ever meant as a 'pump priming attempt' just as the FIT scheme was designed to increase the take-up of RE and was removed when price reductions had made it redundant.

    I hope BEV prices do indeed drop in response to increased demand and would therefore welcome reduction or even removal of artificial subsidies.
    Originally posted by EricMears
    I seem to recall VW dropped their prices in response to a previous cut in grant level on PHEVs. Perhaps other manufacturers did as well and will do so again if the BEV grant is cut.
    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, Nissan Leaf (plus some ICEs )
    • EricMears
    • By EricMears 19th Nov 19, 3:52 PM
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    • 4,463 Thanks
    EricMears
    I seem to recall VW dropped their prices in response to a previous cut in grant level on PHEVs. Perhaps other manufacturers did as well and will do so again if the BEV grant is cut.
    Originally posted by JKenH
    I've always believed that manufacturers work out an affordable price then add on whatever grants the customer would get
    NE Derbyshire.
    4kWp S Facing 17.5deg slope (dormer roof).
    • JKenH
    • By JKenH 19th Nov 19, 3:53 PM
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    • 3,339 Thanks
    JKenH
    When do you get your V2H charging station installed?
    Originally posted by 1961Nick
    That now is temporarily on the back burner as apparently there is no signal where I live to operate a Smart meter. The cost of the Wallbox Quasar is £1200 (presumably plus fitting less £500 government grant). Would it be worthwhile on E7 saving about 7.5p/ kWh?

    If the installed cost was £1200 (ignoring any battery degradation) I would need to save 16000 kWh to break even on bought in day rate electricity or about 8000 kwh of solar. I am not sure how much solar I would have spare in summer after charging the Leaf and heating water, cooking, TV and base load etc and after we move into the shoulder months there are the ASHPs to feed as well. I have not yet been through a winter with ASHPs but at a rough guess my annual net (after solar contribution) day usage which a battery could potentially cover is about 3000kwh of which about 1800 kwh is November to February. If I was to cover all the day time usage from the EV battery that would only leave an average of 15 kWh/day available for driving those months.
    Realistically if I could maybe save 1500 kWh of daytime usage from E7 stored in the battery over this winter period I would save £112. 50

    If the sun shone consistently from 1st April to 31st August and I didn’t use the car too much I could potentially save another 900 kWh (average 6 kWh/day) by meeting all the household demand from the battery but the sun doesn’t shine consistently and some days I would empty the battery using the Leaf as a car, so perhaps a summertime saving of 500 kwh at an average (day/night rate) of 12p/kWh might be achievable - £60.

    March and September would be somewhere in between- say another £30 over the two months.

    The total saving per annum would be of the order of £200. Payback of the Wallbox would take 6 years. Then of course there is the battery degradation to consider - I’m not sure how to express that but maybe 120 cycles per annum for 3000 kwh of a 30 kwh battery? Then there is the warranty issue.

    So I am not sure whether it is worth it at this stage. I would welcome any thoughts.
    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, Nissan Leaf (plus some ICEs )
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 20th Nov 19, 11:32 AM
    • 28,035 Posts
    • 13,884 Thanks
    Cardew
    I'm sure the BEV incentives were only ever meant as a 'pump priming attempt' just as the FIT scheme was designed to increase the take-up of RE and was removed when price reductions had made it redundant.

    .
    Originally posted by EricMears
    Albeit FIT was inflation linked for a 20 or 25 year period.
    • GreatApe
    • By GreatApe 20th Nov 19, 12:28 PM
    • 4,134 Posts
    • 3,028 Thanks
    GreatApe
    Contract hire companies have remarked upon the number of cars that have been returned with the charging cable still inside the sealed bag! Clearly giving someone a tax incentive to lug 200kg of batteries & sundries around for 3 years is crazy ... especially as it's probably using more fuel than the equivalent ICE vehicle.

    When do you get your V2H charging station installed?
    Originally posted by 1961Nick

    A plug in hybrid even if not charged is still more efficient than an equivalent ICE

    ICE
    Hybrid
    plug in hybrid with small range
    Plug in hybrid with long range
    BEV

    Jumping from ICE to BEV makes little sense and simply isn't possible to build 100 million full BEVs anytime soon

    The best bet for the medium term is plug in hybrids
    I think somewhere around the 30-60 mile mark is the sweet spot
    Achieving 95%+ annual electric miles but with less cost less mass less battery limited no range problems or charge time problems

    BEVs can take the premium market
    Long range plug ins 50-100 mile the upper middle market
    Medium range plug ins 30-60 miles the mid market
    Short range plug ins 10-30 miles the low ends

    If the aim is to achieve low FF useage the best bet is plug in hybrids
    Building 5 million plug in hybrids that are 90% electric miles is better than building 1 million pure BEVs with 100% electric miles with the same batteries. 450% Vs 100%
    • GreatApe
    • By GreatApe 20th Nov 19, 12:52 PM
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    GreatApe
    Even normal hybrids are good and in some cases better than a BEV. In some countries like China and Germany the marginal production of electricity is from coal at around 800-1000 grams /KWh which means a model 3 will be indirectly emitting more carbon than a Prius

    BEVs and plug in hybrids make sense where the grid isn't marginal coal
    So France Norway UK etc they make sense
    China or Germany they don't make sense right now and probably not for the next 10-15 years (which is about the lifetime of a car)

    If it was actually about CO2 and fossil fuels Germany would extend the life of its existing nukes by a decade. Doing that will save 60 million tons of CO2 per year equal to the emmissions of 37.5 million cars
    • joefizz
    • By joefizz 20th Nov 19, 2:07 PM
    • 457 Posts
    • 398 Thanks
    joefizz
    I'm sure the BEV incentives were only ever meant as a 'pump priming attempt' just as the FIT scheme was designed to increase the take-up of RE and was removed when price reductions had made it redundant.

    I hope BEV prices do indeed drop in response to increased demand and would therefore welcome reduction or even removal of artificial subsidies.
    Originally posted by EricMears

    Its the way the taxes are raised afterwards that will also be an issue.
    Various think tanks have put their oar in from road charging, mileage charging, extras taxes per kwh charging (reasons not to have a smart car charger) to even including taxing the free electricity from solar panels.
    The last one will have a lot of people crying but again it could be a taxing the rich policy, rich enough to own solar panels, rich enough to own an ev, then pay up.


    I dont expect the solar feed in tariff over here to be honoured for the 20 years and expect it to be cut off at some point (like the doomed RHI scheme over here). Likewise I suspect early BEV adopters might get away with no road tax for the lifetime of the car but might get hit in future and will certainly get hit on the charging at some point.
    Wait until you see the crying if we get hit by taxes per CO2 of electricity generation...


    death and taxes....
    • EricMears
    • By EricMears 20th Nov 19, 3:11 PM
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    • 4,463 Thanks
    EricMears
    Albeit FIT was inflation linked for a 20 or 25 year period.
    Originally posted by Cardew
    The point being made was that the scheme was withdrawn for new installations. Contractual terms for earlier installations were fixed at time of joining scheme (and RPI linking was part of those)
    NE Derbyshire.
    4kWp S Facing 17.5deg slope (dormer roof).
    • 1961Nick
    • By 1961Nick 20th Nov 19, 4:36 PM
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    • 3,841 Thanks
    1961Nick
    Its the way the taxes are raised afterwards that will also be an issue......
    Originally posted by joefizz
    This is the big question for the future.

    At the moment EV owners are fortunate to be in a group with cyclists & pedestrians who use the roads paid for by ICE vehicles for nothing.

    At some point EVs are going to have to pay their way. Taxing electricity isn't an option because there's no way of differentiating between what goes into a vehicle & what is consumed domestically. Increasing VED won't work because it would unfairly penalise those with very low mileages. That leaves road pricing as the only option. Every vehicle will have to be fitted with a box & pay per mile travelled. It may even help reduce congestion if smart pricing was introduced at some point.

    I really don't like the idea of 'the freedom of the open road' being replaced by 'Big brother is watching you', but I really can't see any other option.

    Never mind, I suppose there's always the option of the newly nationalised railways which will of course run on time & at speeds of 250 mph & with no overcrowding ... can't wait to try them!!
    4kWp (black/black) - Sofar Inverter - SSE(141°) - 30° pitch - North Lincs
    Installed June 2013 - PVGIS = 3400

    Sofar ME3000SP Inverter & 5 x Pylontech US2000B Plus Batteries - 12kWh
    • JKenH
    • By JKenH 20th Nov 19, 5:54 PM
    • 1,171 Posts
    • 3,339 Thanks
    JKenH

    At the moment EV owners are fortunate to be in a group with cyclists & pedestrians who use the roads paid for by ICE vehicles for nothing.
    Originally posted by 1961Nick
    I don’t contribute anything with my Golf or the wife’s Picanto and only £30 a year for my Merc. Some Tesla, the odd Leaf and all IPace owners are going to have a hefty VED bill.
    At some point EVs are going to have to pay their way. Taxing electricity isn't an option because there's no way of differentiating between what goes into a vehicle & what is consumed domestically.
    Originally posted by 1961Nick
    Except maybe if electricity from public chargers attracts a tax.

    Increasing VED won't work because it would unfairly penalise those with very low mileages.
    Originally posted by 1961Nick
    It already does. I had a Toyota MR2 for 9 years and never did more than 1k miles pa in it. I also have an MX5 sitting in the garage. It would only have occasional use but I would pay as much to tax that for one year as the other four cars for 10 years, so it is SORNed. I have always argued for VED to be abolished and the tax added to fuel - it’s fair as those who use the roads and have the high CO2 cars pay the most.
    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, Nissan Leaf (plus some ICEs )
    • GreatApe
    • By GreatApe 20th Nov 19, 7:25 PM
    • 4,134 Posts
    • 3,028 Thanks
    GreatApe
    This is the big question for the future.

    At the moment EV owners are fortunate to be in a group with cyclists & pedestrians who use the roads paid for by ICE vehicles for nothing.

    At some point EVs are going to have to pay their way. Taxing electricity isn't an option because there's no way of differentiating between what goes into a vehicle & what is consumed domestically. Increasing VED won't work because it would unfairly penalise those with very low mileages. That leaves road pricing as the only option. Every vehicle will have to be fitted with a box & pay per mile travelled. It may even help reduce congestion if smart pricing was introduced at some point.

    I really don't like the idea of 'the freedom of the open road' being replaced by 'Big brother is watching you', but I really can't see any other option.

    Never mind, I suppose there's always the option of the newly nationalised railways which will of course run on time & at speeds of 250 mph & with no overcrowding ... can't wait to try them!!
    Originally posted by 1961Nick

    It's either monthly road tax or per mile useage

    The monthly VED while unfair on low mileage users but it is easier to do it also will reduce the number of second cars and people who do very very low mileage which is probably a good thing

    Something like £50/month road tax on BEVs would cover the lost fuel taxes without the need for a central government IT system to track 35 million cars every second of every day. Government hasn't had a great track record with big IT projects not to mention the cost in energy and resources to do all that monitoring just easier to charge a monthly or yearly road useage £50pm/£600pa no additional infrastructure just BEVs pay more road tax to cover the lost fuel tax

    Don't see it being a big issue for at least the next 5 years or perhaps even the next 10 years depending on how fast BEVs and plug ins develop. Certainly firstly the subsidises will be removed before taxes are imposed.
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