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    Former MSE Lawrence
    MONEY MORAL DILEMMA: Should Anne put the animals down?
    • #1
    • 6th Apr 10, 7:24 PM
    MONEY MORAL DILEMMA: Should Anne put the animals down? 6th Apr 10 at 7:24 PM
    Here's this week's hypothetical situation for you to cogitate on:

    Should Anne put the animals down?

    Anne's always been an animal lover and over the years has acquired many strays. She's got a pony, two goats, four dogs, three cats and a hamster - many getting on in years and with medical problems. A year ago she lost her job - her savings have gone, and she's struggling to keep her home. Her biggest cost is the animals' welfare & food. Nobody wants to take them.

    Click reply to have your say

    Previous MMDs: View All



    Update Note From Martin

    A quick response on the "this shouldn't be discussed its not appropriate" notes a few have listed.

    This is a more common situation than you think it originates from a similar (though no identical) question posed to me about what the options were for pets when the money had run out.

    In the past I once did a money makeover on a woman who's was massively overspending due to her animals and causing financial problems. As some in the thread have said they have been put in severe debt due to animal costs.

    Just because the consequences of this aren't nice - doesn't mean we don't need think how to deal with it.

    Being open to debate is important

    This is a pure money moral dilemma - putting animals down is not illegal. Financially not having the animals adds up, yet is it morally acceptible. It's a moral v a money situation - exactly the type of MMD many people need face.

    We live in a meat eating society - animals are killed for food all the time - the moral difference between that and putting an animal down so someone can afford to eat - is a relatively fine line. Different people draw conclusions on both sides of it. It's also worth noting at some point if she loses her home and is declared bankrupt the animals may be homesless and without food too.

    Of course its to be hoped sancturies and animal welfare charities would take the animals - indeed she is very obviously an animal lover as are many - and no one wants to think of animals suffering - and it will cause great emotion to get rid of them. Yet I've heard reports that especially old and sick animals can't always be catered for (though have no empirical evidence).

    Would it be different if it were a farmer who had livestock that couldn't sell and thus his choice was to cull them in order to cut costs?

    Why debate it?

    The point of the MMD is to make people think - to come up with a situation where different people will have opposing views and learn from each other.

    Hopefully anyone in a similar position will be able to learn from the tips, solutions and options given above.

    Please lets try and have a sensible rational debate about what some people face as a real economic and ethical reality.

    Martin

    PS Some animal shelters to help anyone in this position provided by people in this thread.

    DOGS

    Founded in 1891, Dogs Trust (formerly the National Canine Defence League) is the largest dog welfare charity in the UK. Our mission is to bring about the day when all dogs can enjoy a happy life, free from the threat of unnecessary destruction.
    http://www.dogstrust.org.uk/rehoming...s/default.aspx

    CATS

    Helping the Harder to Home Cats ('Top Cats' section) - Most rescues find they have a few cats that always seem to be overlooked, and often stay in care for months or even years. They may be elderly, have a medical condition, be very shy, or are simply passed by in favour of prettier or younger cats. Rescues can feature any 'harder to home' cats on our Top Cats section. This section has been very successful in finding new homes for many cats, some of whom had almost given up hope.
    http://www.catchat.org/adoption/index.html

    RODENTS

    Special notice should be given to Paws Here in Edinburgh - I support and regularly donate to this shelter and I take in their elderly rats when I can.
    http://www.animalrescuers.co.uk/html/rabferr.html

    FARM ANIMALS

    I am less familiar with farm animals but I have these links which may help:

    http://www.farmanimalrescue.org.uk/f...ry-history.htm
    Middlesex

    http://www.thefarmanimalsanctuary.co.uk/
    Worcestershire

    http://www.animalrescuers.co.uk/html/farm.html
    UK

    This site in general is really good for around the country shelters:
    http://www.animalrescuers.co.uk/





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    Last edited by MSE Martin; 08-04-2010 at 9:22 PM.
Page 6
  • siani70
    Anne's animals
    Better be careful what I say as my cat is sitting on my lap and reading what I type.

    What I want to know is what on earth was Anne doing with all those animals in the first place? She took in all those strays with no thought as to their long-term future if she should get into financial difficulties! I'm sure she did it with the best intentions but you often see people on low incomes collecting large menageries which then become a burden to the RSPCA, PDSA, etc. I wish people would think before taking animals on.

    Clearly, what Anne needs to do is get onto MSE and give herself a money makeover . Shame she didn't do it a year ago when she lost her job and the animals were a year younger.
    • RuthnJasper
    • By RuthnJasper 7th Apr 10, 3:20 PM
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    RuthnJasper
    Well, in light of Martin's update to the original question - I shall try to bypass the moral aspect of this.

    There are (fortunately) plenty of welfare sanctuaries - for different types of animals - in this country who would take the beasts in question or who may be able to offer grants to help with vets' fees. And there is also the PDSA or Blue Cross for those in financial need.

    I am a meat eater and am not a fluffy-bunny-hugger. However, dogs, cats, horses - probably goats (I'm not sure, so I can't say for certain) are SENTIENT beings - they can look at a situation and consider various factors before making an independent decision as to what action they are going to take. Not all species can do this. For such sentient animals, I don't believe that they have less of a right to a full life than humans.

    If it is essential that Anne must get rid of the animals, and she really cannot find any shelter willing to help her (which I doubt, considering the shelters up and down the country), then she would need to think about whether she can live with herself. It rather sounds like she's in such a financial pickle that she'd lose her home with or without the animals. I was in a slightly similar situation with crippling vet bills a few years ago. I sold all I could (my Dr. Who video collection netted me a few hundred quid ) to pay the bills until I got a new job. I couldn't have put a happy, vibrant dog to death and faced my conscience. She did pass away some years afterwards - but at least I could sleep at night...

    I don't think there's a definitive answer to this MMD - it's down to the individual's conscience.

    Personally, I would rather be destitute and hungry WITH my dog (which I have been for most of the last year... I'm now in my eleventh "one meal per day" month), than able to financially get by WITHOUT him. He brings joy and companionship and is the one good thing I have at the moment. But I do know that some people find this position ludicrous, and that's not necessarily wrong; just their viewpoint.

    So - if I was Anne; no, I wouldn't put them to sleep. That's my conscience though, which is more important to me than money. Not necessarily wise - but the right answer for me, personally.
    • Clive Woody
    • By Clive Woody 7th Apr 10, 3:25 PM
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    Clive Woody
    Sigh.

    I was going to just leave it and quit repeating myself but why should I? This thread isn't getting deleted so why bother.

    I shall repeat: if you can choose to kill a healthy animal instead of giving it to a shelter, take a look at yourself in the mirror and decide if you like what you have become.
    Originally posted by Enchantica
    You just cannot get past the point that other people have different opinions to you and in this case there is no right or wrong as both options are valid and legal.

    Can I also suggest you re-read the original dilema on page 1.

    "We act as though comfort and luxury are the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about” – Albert Einstein
    • Clive Woody
    • By Clive Woody 7th Apr 10, 3:32 PM
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    Clive Woody
    Well, in light of Martin's update to the original question - I shall try to bypass the moral aspect of this.

    There are (fortunately) plenty of welfare sanctuaries - for different types of animals - in this country who would take the beasts in question or who may be able to offer grants to help with vets' fees. And there is also the PDSA or Blue Cross for those in financial need.

    I am a meat eater and am not a fluffy-bunny-hugger. However, dogs, cats, horses - probably goats (I'm not sure, so I can't say for certain) are SENTIENT beings - they can look at a situation and consider various factors before making an independent decision as to what action they are going to take. Not all species can do this. For such sentient animals, I don't believe that they have less of a right to a full life than humans.

    If it is essential that Anne must get rid of the animals, and she really cannot find any shelter willing to help her (which I doubt, considering the shelters up and down the country), then she would need to think about whether she can live with herself. It rather sounds like she's in such a financial pickle that she'd lose her home with or without the animals. I was in a slightly similar situation with crippling vet bills a few years ago. I sold all I could (my Dr. Who video collection netted me a few hundred quid ) to pay the bills until I got a new job. I couldn't have put a happy, vibrant dog to death and faced my conscience. She did pass away some years afterwards - but at least I could sleep at night...

    I don't think there's a definitive answer to this MMD - it's down to the individual's conscience.

    Personally, I would rather be destitute and hungry WITH my dog (which I have been for most of the last year... I'm now in my eleventh "one meal per day" month), than able to financially get by WITHOUT him. He brings joy and companionship and is the one good thing I have at the moment. But I do know that some people find this position ludicrous, and that's not necessarily wrong; just their viewpoint.

    So - if I was Anne; no, I wouldn't put them to sleep. That's my conscience though, which is more important to me than money. Not necessarily wise - but the right answer for me, personally.
    Originally posted by RuthnJasper
    You say you will try to bypass the moral aspect of this debate, then base your whole argument on people's consciences. I am not quite sure how the logic of this works?

    "We act as though comfort and luxury are the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about” – Albert Einstein
    • aliasojo
    • By aliasojo 7th Apr 10, 3:34 PM
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    aliasojo
    Well, in light of Martin's update to the original question - I shall try to bypass the moral aspect of this.
    Originally posted by RuthnJasper
    I have to say the OP now comes over as more reasonable and less provocative.
    Herman - MP for all!
  • patootie
    Good grief .. what a question to ask .. of course you don't put innocent animals down .. and a good vet wouldn't do it either .. there are loads of charities that will take animals and rehome them or keep them .. I'm amazed you even thought to ask such a question .. !!
    • Ebenezer_Screwj
    • By Ebenezer_Screwj 7th Apr 10, 3:36 PM
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    Ebenezer_Screwj
    What a ridiculous situation to be in. Knowing how stupid people people can be about animals in this country I am sure that if her plight were to be advertised somebody would take them off her hands, if not one of the animal charities especially as there is a danger now of them not being looked after properly.
    • pippitypip
    • By pippitypip 7th Apr 10, 3:36 PM
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    pippitypip
    You just cannot get past the point that other people have different opinions to you and in this case there is no right or wrong as both options are valid and legal.

    Can I also suggest you re-read the original dilema on page 1.

    Originally posted by Clive Woody
    In which case, if you take your own advice, that people are entitled to their own opinions, isn't Enchantica entitled to the opinion that it's wrong to put an animal down in this scenario?

    I agree with Martin that this is certainly a worthwhile discussion to highlight the options to people in dire financial straits who have pets, but I also agree it should have been worded better, "to kill or not to kill" (paraphrasing "Should Anne put the animals down") isn't a helpful debate at all and preys on people's sensitivites. imho, it's almost inevitable that at some point this thread will need to be closed because of offence caused.

    pippitypip
    I know I'm in my own little world, but it's ok - they know me here!
    • Enchantica
    • By Enchantica 7th Apr 10, 3:37 PM
    • 547 Posts
    • 1,299 Thanks
    Enchantica
    You just cannot get past the point that other people have different opinions to you and in this case there is no right or wrong as both options are valid and legal.

    Can I also suggest you re-read the original dilema on page 1.

    Originally posted by Clive Woody
    I know people have different opinions. But there is a right and wrong here. Is it wrong to kill a healthy animal? Yes. Is it right to give it to a shelter, RATHER than kill it? Yes. I am unsure what you don't understand.
  • brewski
    no she should absolutely not put the animals down. she should contact every animal sanctuary or rehoming place there is, even if this takes ages. The animals are not to blame for her losing her job.
    • claire5005
    • By claire5005 7th Apr 10, 3:43 PM
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    • 132 Thanks
    claire5005
    Can't she give them to the RSPCA? There has to be another way other than having them euthanized.
    Originally posted by awehla
    You are sadly disillusioned if you think that the RSPCA wont euthanise them! They have a reputation for putting down animals for no reason other than they are difficult to deal with - animals that have lost their owners are often difficult; they need time to adjust.
    • Clive Woody
    • By Clive Woody 7th Apr 10, 3:51 PM
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    Clive Woody
    In which case, if you take your own advice, that people are entitled to their own opinions, isn't Enchantica entitled to the opinion that it's wrong to put an animal down in this scenario?
    Originally posted by pippitypip
    Absolutely, I am all for open debate and of posting of one's opinion and at no point have I called for this thread to be locked or deleted and suggested my opinion is the only one.

    I agree with Martin that this is certainly a worthwhile discussion to highlight the options to people in dire financial straits who have pets, but I also agree it should have been worded better, "to kill or not to kill" (paraphrasing "Should Anne put the animals down") isn't a helpful debate at all and preys on people's sensitivites. imho, it's almost inevitable that at some point this thread will need to be closed because of offence caused.

    pippitypip
    I think people are spending too much time trying to debate the wording of the question rather than looking at the underlying issue for discussion.

    Yes their are animal charities as has been pointed out countless times already, but the animals in question are old and in need of medical treatment. I for one can see issues in trying to rehome a sick elderly donkey that will come complete with extensive vet bills. Also pet euthanasia is a legal and valid option, but some on here seem to feel this compares with killing a child.

    It's disappointing that people seem to get 'upset' when offered the opportunity to debate something with a bit of substance and would rather have a happy fluffy discussion about should Tina buy the blue shoes or the green ones...

    "We act as though comfort and luxury are the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about” – Albert Einstein
    • Clive Woody
    • By Clive Woody 7th Apr 10, 3:54 PM
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    Clive Woody
    I know people have different opinions. But there is a right and wrong here. Is it wrong to kill a healthy animal? Yes. Is it right to give it to a shelter, RATHER than kill it? Yes. I am unsure what you don't understand.
    Originally posted by Enchantica
    There is not a right or wrong here, there is a pro- and an anti- argument, both valid, both legal. I am not sure which bit of this you fail to grasp!

    "We act as though comfort and luxury are the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about” – Albert Einstein
    • slatter4
    • By slatter4 7th Apr 10, 3:58 PM
    • 19 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    slatter4
    Can I just ask if any of the people here, who are saying how many shelters and charities will always help, ever donate to or help those shelters or charities?

    Please remember they are usually totally dependent on help and donations from the public to keep running, especially the small localised ones. Perhaps a timely reminder to give a little even in hard times?
    • claire5005
    • By claire5005 7th Apr 10, 4:01 PM
    • 19 Posts
    • 132 Thanks
    claire5005
    I know people have different opinions. But there is a right and wrong here. Is it wrong to kill a healthy animal? Yes. Is it right to give it to a shelter, RATHER than kill it? Yes. I am unsure what you don't understand.
    Originally posted by Enchantica
    Enchantica, save your breath he is just winding you up. You will not win because he will argue black is white if necessary. I am with you 100% and struggling with a disabled GSD but I will never give up on her. Keep up your good work and ignore the plebs
    • aliasojo
    • By aliasojo 7th Apr 10, 4:01 PM
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    aliasojo
    ...... but some on here seem to feel this compares with killing a child.

    It's disappointing that people seem to get 'upset' when offered the opportunity to debate something with a bit of substance and would rather have a happy fluffy discussion about should Tina buy the blue shoes or the green ones...

    Originally posted by Clive Woody
    For some people, their animal is their child.

    Others believe they have no right to end the life of another living thing, no matter what it is.

    So personally I can understand the comparison.

    As for the debating opportunity, if this was anywhere other than the MSE Arms, I would agree it would make for a provactive and interesting discussion. This isn't 'that' kind of site though, as can be shown by the amount of deletes usually required here.
    Herman - MP for all!
    • MSE Martin
    • By MSE Martin 7th Apr 10, 4:09 PM
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    MSE Martin
    Sorry, back again, can't keep my mouth shut on this one. There are shelters who take in elderly and sick animals and if anyone needs to find one then I am the one to contact. Personally I take in elderly and sick rats and I can easily find people for other animals. I have many contacts and can help out where needed.

    This thread isn't easy for some to stomach and some of the responses were not easy to read.

    There is your answer. If someone is in this situation then call someone in the know ie. someone like me. If need be I will make up a list of appropriate shelters around the country. This should not be proposed as a kill and not to kill question. It should be "which shelters will take my animals?"
    Originally posted by Enchantica
    If you can post links of shelters which will take animals in regardless of health - i'll happily link to them in the first post - then hopefully some will gain from it.
    Martin Lewis, Money Saving Expert.
    Please note, answers don't constitute financial advice, it is based on generalised journalistic research. Always ensure any decision is made with regards to your own individual circumstance.

    Don't miss out on urgent MoneySaving, get my weekly e-mail at www.moneysavingexpert.com/tips.

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    • Clive Woody
    • By Clive Woody 7th Apr 10, 4:12 PM
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    Clive Woody
    Enchantica, save your breath he is just winding you up. You will not win because he will argue black is white if necessary. I am with you 100% and struggling with a disabled GSD but I will never give up on her. Keep up your good work and ignore the plebs
    Originally posted by claire5005
    If you are referring to me then I can assure you I am not on a wind up, but simply trying to stop Enchantica from derailing this discussion by claiming hers is the only option.

    I hope this is clear.

    "We act as though comfort and luxury are the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about” – Albert Einstein
    • Clive Woody
    • By Clive Woody 7th Apr 10, 4:16 PM
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    Clive Woody
    For some people, their animal is their child.

    Others believe they have no right to end the life of another living thing, no matter what it is.

    So personally I can understand the comparison.
    Originally posted by aliasojo
    Indeed, but for others it is simply a pet and they make no claims about it having equal rights to that of a human.

    Does that make their opinion less valid?

    "We act as though comfort and luxury are the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about” – Albert Einstein
    • aliasojo
    • By aliasojo 7th Apr 10, 4:22 PM
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    aliasojo
    Indeed, but for others it is simply a pet and they make no claims about it having equal rights to that of a human.

    Does that make their opinion less valid?

    Originally posted by Clive Woody
    No, not at all. I was simply offering a reply to your earlier comment.
    Herman - MP for all!
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