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    • 50Twuncle
    • By 50Twuncle 1st Nov 19, 3:06 PM
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    50Twuncle
    Descriptor F (8 points): Cannot prepare and cook food
    • #1
    • 1st Nov 19, 3:06 PM
    Descriptor F (8 points): Cannot prepare and cook food 1st Nov 19 at 3:06 PM
    Descriptor F (8 points): Cannot prepare and cook food

    I am unsteady on my feet - so, whilst I can put a pie in the oven - I would struggle to do anything with it after cooking - I could not carry it to a plate or move the plate afterwards to eat it.

    How would that rate me for points ?
    WW3 is coming - it's been almost 75 years since the last one - the next one will be FAR worse !
    So what's a few squabbles between politicians ??
Page 1
    • Spoonie Turtle
    • By Spoonie Turtle 1st Nov 19, 3:59 PM
    • 372 Posts
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    Spoonie Turtle
    • #2
    • 1st Nov 19, 3:59 PM
    • #2
    • 1st Nov 19, 3:59 PM
    I'm not sure if it's included in the test, but if it is you could probably be reasonably expected to use an aid such as a perching stool or one of those trolleys (trays on wheels). If not, assistance would be reasonable if you can do the rest of the task (with or without aids).

    See if the case law sheds any light: https://pipinfo.net/activities/preparing-food

    It was actually mentioned in a bit of case law I was reading about notional tests for journeys to and from work ... I don't have time to reread it right now but I'll see if I can find the link ...

    It may have been here https://www.gov.uk/administrative-appeals-tribunal-decisions/ht-v-secretary-of-state-for-work-and-pensions-esa-2018-ukut-174-aac
    Or maybe here https://www.gov.uk/administrative-appeals-tribunal-decisions/sg-v-secretary-of-state-for-work-and-pensions-esa-2018-ukut-34-aac
    In the document (link begins with CE/ ), search for 'notional' - it was talking about considering things in context, not divorced from reality.
    Last edited by Spoonie Turtle; 01-11-2019 at 4:04 PM.
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 1st Nov 19, 6:08 PM
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    poppy12345
    • #3
    • 1st Nov 19, 6:08 PM
    • #3
    • 1st Nov 19, 6:08 PM
    Descriptor F (8 points): Cannot prepare and cook food

    I am unsteady on my feet - so, whilst I can put a pie in the oven - I would struggle to do anything with it after cooking - I could not carry it to a plate or move the plate afterwards to eat it.

    How would that rate me for points ?
    Originally posted by 50Twuncle
    Using an oven isn't considered for this activity.


    This activity considers a claimant’s ability to prepare and cook a simple meal for one from fresh ingredients. It assesses ability to open packaging, peel and chop, serve food on to a plate and use a microwave oven or cooker hob to cook or heat food. Serving food means transferring food to a plate or bowl, it does not include presentation.

    Carrying items around the kitchen or carrying food to where it will be eaten is not included in this activity.


    • can the claimant carry out the activity reliably (that is, safely, to an acceptable standard, repeatedly and in a reasonable time period) and independently, or with the use of a commonly used device? If so, then descriptor A would usually apply
    • does the claimant need to use/rely upon an aid or appliance to complete the activity? If they use an aid or appliance which it would be reasonable to expect them to use e.g. a Zimmer frame when walking, could they then complete the activity reliably without assistance from another person? If so, then descriptor B would apply
    • if the answer to both the above questions is no, then consideration should be given to whether the claimant must rely on prompting, supervision or assistance in order to complete the activity, in which case an alternative descriptor may be more appropriate
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/personal-independence-payment-assessment-guide-for-assessment-providers/pip-assessment-guide-part-2-the-assessment-criteria
    Last edited by poppy12345; 01-11-2019 at 6:11 PM.
    • venison
    • By venison 1st Nov 19, 11:35 PM
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    venison
    • #4
    • 1st Nov 19, 11:35 PM
    • #4
    • 1st Nov 19, 11:35 PM
    To my way of thinking to score 8 points for this you would have to be unable to prepare and cook food completely.
    If you fail to plan you plan to fail
    • 50Twuncle
    • By 50Twuncle 2nd Nov 19, 8:00 AM
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    50Twuncle
    • #5
    • 2nd Nov 19, 8:00 AM
    • #5
    • 2nd Nov 19, 8:00 AM
    To my way of thinking to score 8 points for this you would have to be unable to prepare and cook food completely.
    Originally posted by venison
    Surely if someone is unable to stand up for more than a couple of minutes - how can they "cook" ?
    WW3 is coming - it's been almost 75 years since the last one - the next one will be FAR worse !
    So what's a few squabbles between politicians ??
    • Prinzessilein
    • By Prinzessilein 2nd Nov 19, 8:38 AM
    • 3,048 Posts
    • 14,346 Thanks
    Prinzessilein
    • #6
    • 2nd Nov 19, 8:38 AM
    • #6
    • 2nd Nov 19, 8:38 AM
    Surely if someone is unable to stand up for more than a couple of minutes - how can they "cook" ?
    Originally posted by 50Twuncle
    Poppy's answer explains it.

    If you can microwave a ready meal, you can 'prepare a meal'...you don't need to be able to cook from scratch.

    Personally I do a fair amount of food prep sitting down...I also get points because I cannot safely use a knife.

    You might like to look at various cooking 'aids'...I rely on mine for helping me make the most of my limited abilities.
    • 50Twuncle
    • By 50Twuncle 2nd Nov 19, 11:03 AM
    • 9,808 Posts
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    50Twuncle
    • #7
    • 2nd Nov 19, 11:03 AM
    • #7
    • 2nd Nov 19, 11:03 AM
    How fixed are tribunal results ?
    ie) If someone is given a particular finding, say 4 years ago - will I be able to use that myself and get the same result - or do they look at each case individually every time ?
    WW3 is coming - it's been almost 75 years since the last one - the next one will be FAR worse !
    So what's a few squabbles between politicians ??
    • 50Twuncle
    • By 50Twuncle 2nd Nov 19, 11:11 AM
    • 9,808 Posts
    • 2,642 Thanks
    50Twuncle
    • #8
    • 2nd Nov 19, 11:11 AM
    • #8
    • 2nd Nov 19, 11:11 AM
    I'm not sure if it's included in the test, but if it is you could probably be reasonably expected to use an aid such as a perching stool or one of those trolleys (trays on wheels). If not, assistance would be reasonable if you can do the rest of the task (with or without aids).

    See if the case law sheds any light: https://pipinfo.net/activities/preparing-food

    It was actually mentioned in a bit of case law I was reading about notional tests for journeys to and from work ... I don't have time to reread it right now but I'll see if I can find the link ...

    It may have been here https://www.gov.uk/administrative-appeals-tribunal-decisions/ht-v-secretary-of-state-for-work-and-pensions-esa-2018-ukut-174-aac
    Or maybe here https://www.gov.uk/administrative-appeals-tribunal-decisions/sg-v-secretary-of-state-for-work-and-pensions-esa-2018-ukut-34-aac
    In the document (link begins with CE/ ), search for 'notional' - it was talking about considering things in context, not divorced from reality.
    Originally posted by Spoonie Turtle

    That document (CE_1585_2017-01..PDF) is for ESA !!
    But the pipinfo one is extremely helpful - thanks
    WW3 is coming - it's been almost 75 years since the last one - the next one will be FAR worse !
    So what's a few squabbles between politicians ??
    • Spoonie Turtle
    • By Spoonie Turtle 2nd Nov 19, 1:40 PM
    • 372 Posts
    • 248 Thanks
    Spoonie Turtle
    • #9
    • 2nd Nov 19, 1:40 PM
    • #9
    • 2nd Nov 19, 1:40 PM
    How fixed are tribunal results ?
    ie) If someone is given a particular finding, say 4 years ago - will I be able to use that myself and get the same result - or do they look at each case individually every time ?
    Originally posted by 50Twuncle
    They look at each case individually, but if it is relevant to your current circumstances you can use it to lend weight to your reasoning.

    That document (CE_1585_2017-01..PDF) is for ESA !!
    But the pipinfo one is extremely helpful - thanks
    Originally posted by 50Twuncle
    I know. As explained, I linked them because it mentioned the cooking notional test. Evidently it didn't give you the answer, my apologies (I've still not been able to reread it yet).

    Edit: though it's now irrelevant anyway as the correct and simple answer has already been given above
    Last edited by Spoonie Turtle; 02-11-2019 at 3:03 PM.
    • kingfisherblue
    • By kingfisherblue 2nd Nov 19, 6:02 PM
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    kingfisherblue
    To my way of thinking to score 8 points for this you would have to be unable to prepare and cook food completely.
    Originally posted by venison

    This^^^


    My son cannot cook at all. He has a severe learning disability and also physical disabilities. He cannot open some packaging or use a tin opener, follow a recipe, use a timer (or tell the time), identify whether food is properly cooked, lift a pan or a kettle, chop veg safely, etc.



    He didn't score the full eight points for this descriptor.
    • Spoonie Turtle
    • By Spoonie Turtle 2nd Nov 19, 6:29 PM
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    Spoonie Turtle
    This^^^


    My son cannot cook at all. He has a severe learning disability and also physical disabilities. He cannot open some packaging or use a tin opener, follow a recipe, use a timer (or tell the time), identify whether food is properly cooked, lift a pan or a kettle, chop veg safely, etc.



    He didn't score the full eight points for this descriptor.
    Originally posted by kingfisherblue
    do you mind if I ask how on earth they justified that?!
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 2nd Nov 19, 6:51 PM
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    poppy12345
    Surely if someone is unable to stand up for more than a couple of minutes - how can they "cook" ?
    Originally posted by 50Twuncle
    Then using a perching stool will help. Being unable to stand will not score you 8 points in this activity.



    If a perching stool doesn't help then you need to explain why it doesn't help and why you need assistance. You won't just score 4 points for needing assistance, if an aid will help you do that activity.



    PIP is about how your conditions affect you and not about someone else. When you do fill in the form you need to concentrate on how your conditions affect you. You've had lots of time to do some research and read guides, use that to your advantage and gain some knowledge because this will help your claim.



    Just looking at the PIP descriptors and thinking "yes, i should score X amount of points" but when you take a closer look you may find it's not possible to score as many points as you think.
    • Spoonie Turtle
    • By Spoonie Turtle 2nd Nov 19, 8:54 PM
    • 372 Posts
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    Spoonie Turtle
    Surely if someone is unable to stand up for more than a couple of minutes - how can they "cook" ?
    Originally posted by 50Twuncle
    By this reasoning all those otherwise healthy people who are completely unable to stand (due to paralysis or amputation, not through illness) 'cannot cook', even though they can sit in a wheelchair or transfer to a seat, with a suitable height work surface and have no problems preparing and cooking the food.


    poppy, those are all excellent points.
    • 50Twuncle
    • By 50Twuncle 3rd Nov 19, 10:13 AM
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    50Twuncle
    By this reasoning all those otherwise healthy people who are completely unable to stand (due to paralysis or amputation, not through illness) 'cannot cook', even though they can sit in a wheelchair or transfer to a seat, with a suitable height work surface and have no problems preparing and cooking the food.


    poppy, those are all excellent points.
    Originally posted by Spoonie Turtle

    There's a lot more to cooking than being able to sit at a work surface - for example reaching up and taking things from kitchen cabinets - and knives from drawers !
    Our kitchen is way too small to even fit in a wheelchair - irs more like a narrow corridor !
    Yes - I do use a three legged petching stool - but that does not let me move around because I would have to stand up to drag it around
    Or are you saying that indvidual circumstances are ignored ?
    WW3 is coming - it's been almost 75 years since the last one - the next one will be FAR worse !
    So what's a few squabbles between politicians ??
    • Spoonie Turtle
    • By Spoonie Turtle 3rd Nov 19, 1:14 PM
    • 372 Posts
    • 248 Thanks
    Spoonie Turtle
    There's a lot more to cooking than being able to sit at a work surface - for example reaching up and taking things from kitchen cabinets - and knives from drawers !
    Our kitchen is way too small to even fit in a wheelchair - irs more like a narrow corridor !
    Yes - I do use a three legged petching stool - but that does not let me move around because I would have to stand up to drag it around
    Or are you saying that indvidual circumstances are ignored ?
    Originally posted by 50Twuncle
    From the guide:
    It assesses ability to open packaging, peel and chop, serve food on to a plate and use a microwave oven or cooker hob to cook or heat food. Serving food means transferring food to a plate or bowl
    I see the point you are making, but the test is pretty much 'can you do it with everything at waist height?'. Whether you choose to store things in cupboards or leave them out on the side so they are easily accessible is not their problem, to put it bluntly! It's about the effects of your condition on your physical and mental functioning for the basic steps of the task.

    I do sympathise because it seems not to consider reality, but theoretically any external circumstances could be changed (even though generally not practical to do so, of course) whereas the internal effects of a condition cannot be. That's what PIP is about.

    Btw you can get rolling stools, though I don't know if any of them go tall enough to replace a perching stool. Our kitchen could certainly not accommodate a wheelchair either.
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 3rd Nov 19, 2:03 PM
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    poppy12345
    There's a lot more to cooking than being able to sit at a work surface - for example reaching up and taking things from kitchen cabinets - and knives from drawers !
    Our kitchen is way too small to even fit in a wheelchair - irs more like a narrow corridor !
    Yes - I do use a three legged petching stool - but that does not let me move around because I would have to stand up to drag it around
    Or are you saying that indvidual circumstances are ignored ?
    Originally posted by 50Twuncle
    You should score 2 points for the perching stool because it's an aid. As you can only score points once for each activity then you won't score anymore points than this.



    Reaching into cabinets or drawers is not part of the descriptor.



    My advice is still to have a read of this link i posted above.
    • kingfisherblue
    • By kingfisherblue 3rd Nov 19, 5:37 PM
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    kingfisherblue
    do you mind if I ask how on earth they justified that?!
    Originally posted by Spoonie Turtle

    I didn't ask, to be honest. My son also didn't receive full points for the budgeting question, even though he cannot identify all of the coins in current use. He cannot add apart from the most basic of sums - single digits are ok for addition, but more than that and it's a struggle. He doesn't understand the value of anything, so as far as my son is concerned, a TV could cost the same as a tin of peas. He did receive thirty points for care and 22 for mobility, and a ten year award, though, so I didn't want to rock the boat.
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 3rd Nov 19, 6:05 PM
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    poppy12345
    My son also didn't receive full points for the budgeting question, even though he cannot identify all of the coins in current use. He cannot add apart from the most basic of sums - single digits are ok for addition, but more than that and it's a struggle. He doesn't understand the value of anything, so as far as my son is concerned, a TV could cost the same as a tin of peas.
    Originally posted by kingfisherblue
    Same as my daughter, she can add single figures using her fingers but anything more than this and she can't. She can identify the coins but only because it states the number on them, otherwise she wouldn't know. She doesn't understand the value of money either and didn't score the full points here. She scored 2 points for descriptor B.
    • kingfisherblue
    • By kingfisherblue 3rd Nov 19, 7:27 PM
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    kingfisherblue
    Same as my daughter, she can add single figures using her fingers but anything more than this and she can't. She can identify the coins but only because it states the number on them, otherwise she wouldn't know. She doesn't understand the value of money either and didn't score the full points here. She scored 2 points for descriptor B.
    Originally posted by poppy12345

    My son can't see the numbers on the coins clearly enough. He's hit and miss, particularly with 5p and 20p. I gave examples and sent supporting evidence, but it obviously wasn't enough. He didn't need a face to face though, and has a decent length and appropriate award, so it's better than a lot of people have.
    • minimad1970
    • By minimad1970 3rd Nov 19, 9:11 PM
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    minimad1970
    You should score 2 points for the perching stool because it's an aid. As you can only score points once for each activity then you won't score anymore points than this.
    Originally posted by poppy12345
    I use a perching stool but scored 0 points.
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