Smart Meters
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RandomQ, thanks for the info. Could I ask where you bought your plug monitor?
I saw a post on this site a few years ago recommending one and this video that reviews them
I have the one with the Green buttons but not seen that on ebay lately, but this one seems similar
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/292489691524
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The 10M or so existing SMETS 1 meters are not being upgraded to SMETS 2 . The requirement placed on the DCC and suppliers is to find a way of adopting these meters on to the DCC infrastructure so that they are no longer supplier dependent. Note the use of the term adoption rather than upgrading or full integration.
A perfect example of double speak, WTFlip does adopting mean anyway?
To consumers, it is pretty simple, it should just work no matter which supplier you have.0 -
A perfect example of double speak, WTFlip does adopting mean anyway?
To consumers, it is pretty simple, it should just work no matter which supplier you have.
The DCC infrastructure was designed at the outset to support SMETS2 meters which connect to the DCC via either a direct link OR via a Wide Area Network (WAN). SMETS1 meters are supplier dependent. It was never envisaged that SMETS1 meters (of which there should have only been a few) would ever connect to the DCC. SMETS1 meters have their own built in security which varies depending on the meter and the supplier. It was thought that adding SMETS1 meters to the DCC infrastructure had the potential to add significant risk to the multi-layered cyber security insisted upon by GCHQ a couple of years.
The concept of adoption, as I understand it, means that there will a technical solution, a firewall if you like, that will prevent any SMETS1 meter from compromising the rest of smart meter system. For example, the latest technical document states that SMETS1 meters will not be connected to the Smart Meter WAN.
It is again worth making the point that not all SMETS1 meters will be deemed suitable for adoption. These will be termed 'stranded assets' and replaced. Some SMETS1 meter comms will be firmware updated and some may need a new comms hub. There are no proposals to upgrade SMETS1 to SMETS2 firmware. The latter has many more functions built into it; for example, voltage monitoring to enable the supplier to track down line faults.
https://www.smartdcc.co.uk/media/317173/15443_factsheet_a_e_v4.pdf1 -
Hi....
For example I have a 3kw kettle, if I buy a kettle that has lower kw it will take longer to boil but end up using the same amount of energy.
I read the following article which was about as useful as sand paper to wipe your backside, it seems that the best thing an "eco" kettles has a a mark to say where a single cup is:
http://www.besthomekitchenstuff.co.uk/top-5-best-energy-efficient-eco-kettles-uk-quick-reviews/
I just fill a cup to 3 quarters and pour it into the kettle and I descale reasonably regularly.
I worked out that for making my morning coffee it costs half of 1p
So what shall I do, deprive myself and drink less coffee?
.... So FORGET your app and your Smarthome, just get yourself a sub £10 energy monitor and use IT to work out your usage device by device ...
I pretty much agree with your post, there are cheaper alternative ways of 'educating' consumers on energy awareness through the provision of information, which include relatively inexpensive energy monitors (we've used one for years!) ... the main two points that the government have missed to achieve their goals are that consumers must accept that they need to be educated and that for those that do, the majority of the benefits become apparent in very little time ... once you understand the level of energy consumption of appliances, then the job is effectively done - beyond that the benefits are in the hands of the industry ....
However ....
.... the energy industry is changing shape rapidly - within the past decade a shift from centralised generation controlled by vast organisations has started to shift towards a more distributed model, including consumer owned microgeneration technologies such as solar PV, furthermore, the next decade will see a move towards distributed storage solutions where many will have the ability to store electricity that they have generated themselves or buy electricity to charge their store when prices are lowest ... that's the way that we're moving ...
Now, considering the above there will need to be a facility to accurately measure load on a real-time basis in order to manage and balance supply, storage & demand ... this could be done via kit specifically purchased to provide this function, or by using the built-in functionality of a smart-meter if one is in place .... my own feeling is that smart-meters are being 'sold' to the public as a premium value product within a project which is poorly managed by the industry because it's not only not hitting their own bottom line, but is providing a long-term profit centre with, thanks to the government & Ofgem, huge margins, but at least if there's one in place, there's no need to purchase another solution as long as the industry opens up access to the real-time comms functionality to householders ...
Regarding the low power kettle example raised in the referenced post, the example is correct on a historical basis, but when looking to the future things may be seen in a different light ..... have a look at the effect of using a standard kettle vs a low powered version in a microgeneration (solar) environment in this article ...
Thinking Solar - Low power Kettle ...
... yes, the energy used to raise the temperature of a set amount of water is essentially the same, but the question moves on to what is the energy source & importantly, how much does that energy cost? ...
HTH
Z"We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
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Hi
I pretty much agree with your post, there are cheaper alternative ways of 'educating' consumers on energy awareness through the provision of information, which include relatively inexpensive energy monitors (we've used one for years!) ... the main two points that the government have missed to achieve their goals are that consumers must accept that they need to be educated and that for those that do, the majority of the benefits become apparent in very little time ... once you understand the level of energy consumption of appliances, then the job is effectively done - beyond that the benefits are in the hands of the industry ....
However ....
.... the energy industry is changing shape rapidly - within the past decade a shift from centralised generation controlled by vast organisations has started to shift towards a more distributed model, including consumer owned microgeneration technologies such as solar PV, furthermore, the next decade will see a move towards distributed storage solutions where many will have the ability to store electricity that they have generated themselves or buy electricity to charge their store when prices are lowest ... that's the way that we're moving ...
Now, considering the above there will need to be a facility to accurately measure load on a real-time basis in order to manage and balance supply, storage & demand ... this could be done via kit specifically purchased to provide this function, or by using the built-in functionality of a smart-meter if one is in place .... my own feeling is that smart-meters are being 'sold' to the public as a premium value product within a project which is poorly managed by the industry because it's not only not hitting their own bottom line, but is providing a long-term profit centre with, thanks to the government & Ofgem, huge margins, but at least if there's one in place, there's no need to purchase another solution as long as the industry opens up access to the real-time comms functionality to householders ...
Regarding the low power kettle example raised in the referenced post, the example is correct on a historical basis, but when looking to the future things may be seen in a different light ..... have a look at the effect of using a standard kettle vs a low powered version in a microgeneration (solar) environment in this article ...
Thinking Solar - Low power Kettle ...
... yes, the energy used to raise the temperature of a set amount of water is essentially the same, but the question moves on to what is the energy source & importantly, how much does that energy cost? ...
HTH
Z
That is all very interesting, IF YOU COULD HAVE SOLAR, but I can't, I have recycled some laptop batteries and looked into the tech of solar but in the end my conclusion is that it is a technology before it's time. The panels need to become much more efficient and less prone to disturbance.
One imagines that there will be some sort of density thing or maybe a reduction in the circuit size along a similar vein to micro processors, maybe Elon can tell us, but for now these things do not pay their way for domestic users.
The idea that we need a £10bn programme of installing the wrong kit is an abuse of public funds.
An awareness campaign that passes on the simple messages of how to save energy was all that was needed.
For example with the kettle, just boil less water, only what you need.
Forget that huge American style fridge or that daft water chiller and ice cube dispenser, just get the most economic fridge for your needs.
I thought things were bad but the excellent post by Hengus shows it is much worse than I realised.
Just confirms to me that the whole programme is not fit for purpose and they should immediately suspend the programme.
Germany has sucessfully held off from this daft and ill thought through programme.
As for all the nerds who want access, if such access was easily provided it will be easy to hack,
The cheap (and expensive) Chinese webcam issue highlights how there can be unforeseen issues.
I am sure hackers and state hackers in particular would be very interested to cause havoc by telling all devices to go off, go into a diagnostic test or just to increase our bills so that their shares in energy companies go up.0 -
It isn't public funds that are being misused.The idea that we need a £10bn programme of installing the wrong kit is an abuse of public funds.
It is MINE and YOUR money as it comes from levies on everyone's energy bills.
And yet it is ran by a private company owned by one of the biggest outsourcing companies (Capita) so we are funding private companies to do what ever they feel like.1 -
The DCC infrastructure was designed at the outset to support SMETS2 meters which connect to the DCC via either a direct link OR via a Wide Area Network (WAN). SMETS1 meters are supplier dependent. It was never envisaged that SMETS1 meters (of which there should have only been a few) would ever connect to the DCC. SMETS1 meters have their own built in security which varies depending on the meter and the supplier. It was thought that adding SMETS1 meters to the DCC infrastructure had the potential to add significant risk to the multi-layered cyber security insisted upon by GCHQ a couple of years.
The concept of adoption, as I understand it, means that there will a technical solution, a firewall if you like, that will prevent any SMETS1 meter from compromising the rest of smart meter system. For example, the latest technical document states that SMETS1 meters will not be connected to the Smart Meter WAN.
It is again worth making the point that not all SMETS1 meters will be deemed suitable for adoption. These will be termed 'stranded assets' and replaced. Some SMETS1 meter comms will be firmware updated and some may need a new comms hub. There are no proposals to upgrade SMETS1 to SMETS2 firmware. The latter has many more functions built into it; for example, voltage monitoring to enable the supplier to track down line faults.
https://www.smartdcc.co.uk/media/317173/15443_factsheet_a_e_v4.pdf
This just gets worse and worse, this is like installing a new broadband router based on dial-up.
They surely knew that this was going to be a fiasco down the road, no wonder so many people are resisting getting a smart meter at all costs.
That PDF you linked to was published 3 years ago, so they have known this was not fit for purpose and still proceeded to install millions of dud Smet1 dumb meters.
Timescales for implementing an infrastructure solution for SMETS1 meters will depend on the nature of the chosen solution. DCC will set out its proposed implementation approach and timescales in its consultation on the feasibility report.
Because there is a significant amount of work for DCC (to) do, there will not be a common infrastructure for SMETS1 meters at the time of DCC Live which supports SMETS2 meters.
This is turning out to be worse than the NHS or DWP debacle projects.
To me this is a public sector project because one way or the other we WILL be forced to pay for it in increased energy costs or standing charges.
It is also another example of the UK misinterpreting EU directives, we were all told we have to do this because of EU Directive blah blah blah but Germany has delayed with no problem as have several other EU member states.
When you run these big projects and things go wrong, sometimes the bravest thing is to say STOP, let's have a rethink.
We all know that there is no chance of them meeting the 2020 deadline and to continue installing these duds is just ridiculous, even if it only went to October and I am sure they will get some last minute extension to keep installing this tat. You can bet that the only reason they are delaying is so that they can say they have reached more of the target, the figures vary but they said on radio is still below 10m homes but that is still 10m that need to be fixed later and getting worse every day.
You could not make it up, we will install millions of devices in people's homes in the full knowledge that they are incompatible with the specification of the DCA, but hey don't worry because we can always pass on the cost to the gormless consumer. Oh and it ties customers to their current supplier or it becomes like Cinderella’s carriage at midnight.
Talk about anti-competitive, I think I might fire off something to Margrethe Vestager the EU competition Commissioner as we all know the CMA will do sweet FA.0 -
It isn't public funds that are being misused.
It is MINE and YOUR money as it comes from levies on everyone's energy bills.
And yet it is ran by a private company owned by one of the biggest outsourcing companies (Capita) so we are funding private companies to do what ever they feel like.
I agree with you, what I meant was that if it was a government department spending the money we could raise hell with the public accounts committee or audit office.
However, as you say it is being done by private companies who have direct access to our wallets.
Do not get me started on Capita! I can't wait for them to go bust.0 -
HiThat is all very interesting, IF YOU COULD HAVE SOLAR, but I can't, I have recycled some laptop batteries and looked into the tech of solar but in the end my conclusion is that it is a technology before it's time. The panels need to become much more efficient and less prone to disturbance.
One imagines that there will be some sort of density thing or maybe a reduction in the circuit size along a similar vein to micro processors, maybe Elon can tell us, but for now these things do not pay their way for domestic users.
The idea that we need a £10bn programme of installing the wrong kit is an abuse of public funds.
An awareness campaign that passes on the simple messages of how to save energy was all that was needed.
For example with the kettle, just boil less water, only what you need.
Forget that huge American style fridge or that daft water chiller and ice cube dispenser, just get the most economic fridge for your needs.
I thought things were bad but the excellent post by Hengus shows it is much worse than I realised.
Just confirms to me that the whole programme is not fit for purpose and they should immediately suspend the programme.
Germany has sucessfully held off from this daft and ill thought through programme.
As for all the nerds who want access, if such access was easily provided it will be easy to hack,
The cheap (and expensive) Chinese webcam issue highlights how there can be unforeseen issues.
I am sure hackers and state hackers in particular would be very interested to cause havoc by telling all devices to go off, go into a diagnostic test or just to increase our bills so that their shares in energy companies go up.
I think you're basically correct on the main smart-metering issues, but totally missing the point on many levels ...
You seem to be reacting to posts which address why local real-time access to smart-meters is a necessary requirement which has been built into the SMETS standards for future use and interpret this as being tacit support for the current smart-metering project .. let me tell you - it isn't, it's simply a technical appraisal!.
The comments on solar panels and batteries seem to convey that there's currently little understanding of the technologies involved or the various schemes which could be available to individuals or social schemes that could provide some form of access to many .. for example, PV efficiency is irrelevant as long as space is available to install the required capacity, it's an argument which was played-out many times almost a decade ago by those taking an anti-pv stance (including representatives of the energy generating industry!), but it's not seen much these days - anyway, in reality PV panel efficiency isn't really that much different to internal combustion engines of a few years ago converting the energy available in petrol to motive power, it's just that the energy source costs far less and there's no energy waste product or emissions! ... pop over to the G&E board on this forum and look for the solar FAQs, they may be useful ...
Anyway, if you look at the link provided and have a quick think, you'll recognise that what it describes would also be applicable to other microgeneration generation sources such a co-generation (/CHP) boilers or domestic battery storage solutions where there's limited on-site power supply available before grid import starts .... this is really important because distributed storage & generation is the most likely way forward over the next few decades ...
HTH
Z"We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle1 -
Wait until the NAO produces its latest Report on programme costs. This is due out shortly. The reason why so many SMETS1 meters have been deployed is because key parts of the programme have just slipped to the right. DECC and now BEIS didn!!!8217;t want to stop/start the programme so they allowed the rollout of SMETS1 to continue. This is a decision that they may yet live to regret.0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2js9ZJ5zHs
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