Cheapest Way Into Global Tracker Funds

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  • ColdIron
    ColdIron Posts: 9,049 Forumite
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    If I were to choose between them, for the extra 10 pence on £1,000 drip fed for the first year I'd select the Vanguard All Cap

    The FTSE Global All Cap Index is a free-float, market-capitalization weighted index representing the performance of around 7400 large, mid and small cap companies in 47 developed and emerging markets worldwide

    The MSCI World Index only covers large and mid cap companies in 23 developed markets
  • stphnstevey
    stphnstevey Posts: 3,224 Forumite
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    edited 3 May 2018 at 11:44PM
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    ColdIron wrote: »
    If I were to choose between them, for the extra 10 pence on £1,000 drip fed for the first year I'd select the Vanguard All Cap

    The FTSE Global All Cap Index is a free-float, market-capitalization weighted index representing the performance of around 7400 large, mid and small cap companies in 47 developed and emerging markets worldwide

    The MSCI World Index only covers large and mid cap companies in 23 developed markets

    Although the index is 7000, the fund only appears to hold about 5000 according to the fund sheet posted below. This is still a high number, I think MSCI is around 2000. However, as the extra 3000 shares would likely be held in such small %, with the top 500 forming the bulk of the portfolio, I do wonder what extra benefit they would truly have. Any charts of the comparison of the performance?

    If the OP was to save up in a high interest bank account, invest in a lump sum annually, I wondered if a fixed fee broker like IWeb would work out cheaper in the long run, with no increasing annual % fee as the amount invested grows in value, only a one off buy and sell fee (presuming buy and hold)

    Alternatively, H&L I think has a World Index ETF allowable for investment through regular saving (£1.50/trade) with no platform charge in trading account or HSBC MSCI World ETF if want to invest in a SIPP at XO with refunded annual fees

    I choose Fidelity over L&G as L&G didn't seem to have a 5yr history yet
  • Alexland
    Alexland Posts: 9,653 Forumite
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    edited 4 May 2018 at 12:02AM
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    L&G International is showing a 10 year history on the YouInvest fund research tools?

    The additional holdings in the Vanguard All Cap results in a lower concentration in the big US shares. For example Apple is 2.1% of the L&G but only 1.6% of the Vanguard fund.

    Ken Fisher would argue it's better to hold large cap stocks towards the end of a bull market as his research suggests they rise strongly. However I have a suspicion they might also drop just as impressively when the bear market starts.

    Alex
  • stphnstevey
    stphnstevey Posts: 3,224 Forumite
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    edited 4 May 2018 at 7:37AM
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    Alexland wrote: »
    L&G International is showing a 10 year history on the YouInvest fund research tools?

    The additional holdings in the Vanguard All Cap results in a lower concentration in the big US shares. For example Apple is 2.1% of the L&G but only 1.6% of the Vanguard fund.

    Ken Fisher would argue it's better to hold large cap stocks towards the end of a bull market as his research suggests they rise strongly. However I have a suspicion they might also drop just as impressively when the bear market starts.

    Alex

    When I looked on H&L and Trustnet they didn't list the Cumalative Performance for 5yr in the table and as I was looking at a few, I didnt notice they did actually include it in the chart

    http://www.hl.co.uk/funds/fund-discounts,-prices--and--factsheets/search-results/l/legal-and-general-international-index-trust-c-accumulation/charts

    https://www.trustnet.com/factsheets/o/jufz/lg-us-index-trust-c-acc

    This is despite the fund launching in 1992?
  • bowlhead99
    bowlhead99 Posts: 12,295 Forumite
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    edited 4 May 2018 at 1:04PM
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    mrke wrote: »
    Yes cost is very much the key....

    Looks like the winner is: 0.37% Charles Stanley Direct & Fidelity World Index P.
    Cost isn't really 'very much key' with the level of cost you are looking at in your comparisons.

    You said you wanted a global fund. Instead you are now looking at compromising by getting a fund that excludes emerging markets just because it's cheaper. So you can get your overall cost to £3.7 per year per £1000 invested instead of £3.9.

    Say as an example, the major world growth areas with developing markets and higher levels of economic growth (where company shares are currently available for a lower multiple of those companies' profits) are able to outperform the shares of companies from developing markets by a percent or so over the long long term that you'll be holding the investment. If ten percent of your fund is invested in those areas instead of being in developed markets, the ten percent delivering 1% better results translates to a 0.10% performance improvement. But you are looking to ignore that opportunity because you want to save 0.02%.

    Markets go up and down at different times. In some years the difference in returns between the average developed economy and the average emerging economy may be 20%. So having a tenth of your portfolio in emerging, instead of having none of your portfolio in emerging, will change your fund's overall performance by 2%. That's one hundred times greater impact that year, than your choice to avoid emerging markets to save 0.02% fees.

    Emerging markets companies may do better than developed one year, or worse another year, one thing you can say is that they will generally be different, and generally the difference (for better or worse) will be more than a percent each and every year. So, deciding you are going to shun a part of the global stockmarkets because you don't want to save two pence on fees for every £100 invested, does not make sense. The whole reason you are considering indexes is broad exposure at low cost, which is a fine philospohy to have. Don't compromise the exposure to get even lower cost, when you are already at lower cost.

    The 0.02% change in cost won't make a practical difference to the net return for a given gross performance figure. The gross performance figure itself, which is a function of what investments are held, will make a practical differnce to the net return.

    As Coldiron said above: "if cost alone is your metric: ..." . But cost alone should not be your metric. If it was all about cost, you can pick up a UK-only or US -only tracker for under 0.1%. But putting your money in that would be ignoring all the other parts of the world, thus the search for something global. By ignoring emerging stockmarkets you are giving up the search for more global places to invest, just to save 0.02% a year which is only £20 on £100,000, and you don't have anything like £100,000 to invest.
  • A_T
    A_T Posts: 959 Forumite
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    Although the index is 7000, the fund only appears to hold about 5000 according to the fund sheet posted below. This is still a high number, I think MSCI is around 2000. However, as the extra 3000 shares would likely be held in such small %, with the top 500 forming the bulk of the portfolio, I do wonder what extra benefit they would truly have. Any charts of the comparison of the performance?

    If the OP was to save up in a high interest bank account, invest in a lump sum annually, I wondered if a fixed fee broker like IWeb would work out cheaper in the long run, with no increasing annual % fee as the amount invested grows in value, only a one off buy and sell fee (presuming buy and hold)

    Alternatively, H&L I think has a World Index ETF allowable for investment through regular saving (£1.50/trade) with no platform charge in trading account or HSBC MSCI World ETF if want to invest in a SIPP at XO with refunded annual fees

    I choose Fidelity over L&G as L&G didn't seem to have a 5yr history yet

    L&G International, Fidelity Index World, Vanguard Dev World ex UK... all of these have very similar holdings (about half US and the rest split between Europe, Japan, Asia Pacific) - they're going to perform more or less the same over long term. And the cost differences are tiny - not worth worrying about.

    But if I was going to have just one global tracker fund I would want it to include as much of the market as possible including emerging countries so would go for HSBC FTSE All-World Index Fund (cost 0.16%) or Vanguard FTSE Global All Cap Index Fund (0.24%).
  • firestone
    firestone Posts: 520 Forumite
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    seeing mention of EM there is HSBC Economic Scale Worldwide Equity ETF (HEWD) which while only having launched 4 years ago seems by the figures on Morningstar and HL to compere pretty well or better with VWRL and is in the same category(on Morningstar) but with a different make up.May only be me but think it could be worth a look
  • A_T
    A_T Posts: 959 Forumite
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    firestone wrote: »
    seeing mention of EM there is HSBC Economic Scale Worldwide Equity ETF (HEWD) which while only having launched 4 years ago seems by the figures on Morningstar and HL to compere pretty well or better with VWRL and is in the same category(on Morningstar) but with a different make up.May only be me but think it could be worth a look

    That's an interesting one. It's approach: "The current chosen measure of economic scale is a company’s contribution to Gross National Product". Quite different to a market cap tracker it's top holdings are Walmart, Gazprom, VW, AT&T, General Electric, Chinese oil and banks. A sort of antidote to FAANGs. :)
  • ColdIron
    ColdIron Posts: 9,049 Forumite
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    However, as the extra 3000 shares would likely be held in such small %, with the top 500 forming the bulk of the portfolio, I do wonder what extra benefit they would truly have.
    Yes, it's all rather marginal but to gain access to an extra 24 countries including EM for 10 pence is a bit of a bargain. That's the cost of a sachet of red sauce at a burger van
    If the OP was to save up in a high interest bank account, invest in a lump sum annually, I wondered if a fixed fee broker like IWeb would work out cheaper in the long run, with no increasing annual % fee as the amount invested grows in value, only a one off buy and sell fee (presuming buy and hold)
    Again yes, there are many economies of scale to be gained with larger portfolios, once you are into multiple 6 figure sums it's my view that you can largely ignore transaction costs so long as you aren't silly about it. But the OP is 'looking to invest £50 to £100 per month'. I could argue that you shouldn't use global funds or tracker funds or that you shouldn't focus on cost but once you stray outside of the original terms of reference where does it all end?
    Alternatively, H&L I think has a World Index ETF allowable for investment through regular saving (£1.50/trade) with no platform charge in trading account
    That's £18 pa in trading fees for a monthly investment, and you would have to keep it unwrapped, HL apply the 0.45% for the first £10,000 in their ISA
    I choose Fidelity over L&G as L&G didn't seem to have a 5yr history yet
    The fund was launched in 2008, maybe it's a consequence of the RDR changes

    Still, it's all good clean fun and promotes discussion but in the real world nobody should make investment decisions based on the cost of fractions of a kebab

    FWIW the OP has played a blinder by getting everybody to do his research for him. Given the objective was to 'find the very lowest cost way for the joint fund and platform combined' with no thought for performance, I wonder if they're writing an article for some publication?
    bowlhead99 wrote: »
    just to save 0.02% a year which is only £2 on £100,000
    A couple of Arytons innit? :)
  • eskbanker
    eskbanker Posts: 31,034 Forumite
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    bowlhead99 wrote: »
    just to save 0.02% a year which is only £2 on £100,000
    It's actually £20 on £100,000 or £2 on £10,000, so just an order of magnitude out.... ;)

    *misses point*
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