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  • FIRST POST
    • Debz71
    • By Debz71 7th Feb 19, 7:04 PM
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    Debz71
    IUC re undeclared assets (gold jewellery) - help with a question no-one knows the answer to
    • #1
    • 7th Feb 19, 7:04 PM
    IUC re undeclared assets (gold jewellery) - help with a question no-one knows the answer to 7th Feb 19 at 7:04 PM
    I've been invited to attend an interview under caution next week at my local council offices concerning alleged benefit fraud they suspect I committed some years ago (in 2004 and 2008/2009) amounting to an overpayment totalling in excess of £3,000 for however many months' worth of Unemployment and Council Tax Benefit I claimed during those two periods. I spoke to a solicitor acquaintance last weekend who strongly advised I should attend so as to help determine what new evidence they may have, but I already know they haven't any whatsoever other than what they possess which consists entirely of the uncorroborated word of one person - my sister - who's a cocaine addict, inveterate liar and someone who has a long list of convictions for dishonesty, including benefit fraud which relates directly to this malarkey. I have no criminal record.

    I likely will attend and stick to mostly "no comment" replies as I may have blasted myself in the foot by ending a prior fractious three-hour long compliance interview by issuing them a challenge to raise a fraud investigation if they cared to waste more of my time. I know I'm not legally compelled to attend, and I'm as sure as I can be that no court would convict me if they choose to prosecute but nevertheless it's a concern. Also related to this is an unresolved police investigation into my financial circumstances. Five weeks back they searched my home under warrant very thoroughly. To say I was unimpressed would be an understatement. It was evident from the outset they expected to discover a very substantial ("26 kilos of the stuff") hoard of gold jewellery but found none other than two rings and necklace I was wearing. They seized £12K cash from a safe, though, and arrested me on suspicion of handling stolen goods (non-existent gold jewellery) and money laundering (the £12K).

    Their questioning was unlike the council/DWP inquisition I'd received previously in that benefits weren't touched upon but they were every bit as interested in the gold I supposedly once had possession of and (they believed) still did and what's more their "information suggested" was the proceeds of crime, and that I may have committed "a form" of probate fraud with regard to my late mother's estate I was joint beneficiary of (along with sis) in 2000 which, they said, could have Inheritance Tax implications as their "sources indicated" I was complicit in not declaring her "£200K cash savings". (No mention was made of any cash sum at the benefits grilling and I rather think vengeful sis deliberately omitted that info from them.) It was simplicity to satisfy the lead detective that the cash taken was legitimately earned but am increasingly frustrated by delays in its return.

    The focus of the compliance interview in July centred on my finances throughout those Unemployment/Council Tax Benefit claims in 2004 and 2008/9. The DWP fella, whose sneering manner annoyed me no end, kept insisting they had information I came in to possession of "a very substantial" amount of gold jewellery in 2000 and retained ownership of most or all of it throughout the duration of those claims and as its value far exceeded the maximum threshold for claiming anything means-tested and that the claims were fraudulent from the their beginnings. I countered by stating that even if I did have the mythical hoard then personal jewellery is exempt from savings and assets calculations to which he replied it was a "grey area" and particularly so when items are inset with numerous sovereign coins that are bullion and "somewhat different". It's a moot point whether bullion coins contained in rings, bracelets, etc, are considered different or not, but I am frustrated by failing to discover a definitive answer after reading miles of info including decision makers' guides, so if anyone can provide a link to something official on the subject I'd be most obliged.
Page 1
    • sportsarb
    • By sportsarb 7th Feb 19, 7:31 PM
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    sportsarb
    • #2
    • 7th Feb 19, 7:31 PM
    • #2
    • 7th Feb 19, 7:31 PM
    No advice but I’m sure as hell interested to hear how it ends.
    • huckster
    • By huckster 8th Feb 19, 6:26 AM
    • 3,564 Posts
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    huckster
    • #3
    • 8th Feb 19, 6:26 AM
    • #3
    • 8th Feb 19, 6:26 AM
    The crux of the matter is that anyone investigating, only has to provide basic things such as financial records. It is then up to those investigating to review the records provided and decide whether they have enough evidence to provide to those who review whether a criminal offence has been committed. You don't have to answer questions regarding allegations, for which there is no evidence.

    As for jewellery, that normally would not be considered for benefits savings thresholds, however, if it only being kept as a way of an investment i.e not worn, then it would be relevant. For example, if you had £20k worth of jewellery/gold which was previously bought as a way of maintaining money, instead of keeping the money in a Bank, then that should be declared as savings. Otherwise you could have people with significant amounts of gold jewellery purely for investment purposes claiming housing benefits etc.
    The comments I post are personal opinion. Always refer to official information sources before relying on internet forums. If you have a problem with any organisation, enter into their official complaints process at the earliest opportunity, as sometimes complaints have to be started within a certain time frame.
    • TELLIT01
    • By TELLIT01 8th Feb 19, 6:47 AM
    • 6,251 Posts
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    TELLIT01
    • #4
    • 8th Feb 19, 6:47 AM
    • #4
    • 8th Feb 19, 6:47 AM
    Some of the terminology used is interesting. "Came into possession of" certainly suggests that the OP didn't purchase the jewellery / bullion. If that is the case it may be that this should have been reported to the relevant authority, because the bullion may have been considered to be capital.
    I'm certainly not claiming that the various authorities never get things wrong, but if there is an interview under caution, and the police have siezed a large amount of cash, there are clearly concerns about the actions of the OP at some point.
    • tomtom256
    • By tomtom256 8th Feb 19, 8:21 AM
    • 1,162 Posts
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    tomtom256
    • #5
    • 8th Feb 19, 8:21 AM
    • #5
    • 8th Feb 19, 8:21 AM
    There are too many what ifs and inconsistencies to offer any real help.

    I get the feeling there is more to the story then you are telling as you are sure no court would convict you, so from that I would infer that there is/was some gold at some point that you had.

    I would be inclined to do a thorough per-prepared statement outlining the facts of any gold/jewellery you had previously owned, what it was worth, where it cam to and where it went and see what com es of it. i would also get proper legal advice from a benefits lawyer.
    • tacpot12
    • By tacpot12 8th Feb 19, 9:30 AM
    • 2,280 Posts
    • 1,981 Thanks
    tacpot12
    • #6
    • 8th Feb 19, 9:30 AM
    • #6
    • 8th Feb 19, 9:30 AM
    You could try complaining to the police about the return of your money; it might be they are dragging their heels for no particular reason, and a complaint might bring a senior officer's attention to the delay. It might be a complaint they can close quickly, and might wish to do so.

    Having carefully read the legislation this morning, I can't see that the Council Tax Benefit Regulations that applied between 2004 and 2009 had rules that allowed even personal jewellery to be disregarded. (The current rules for income-based JSA do.) So if you had this jewellery and it was yours, then you should not have been able to claim any Council Tax benefit.

    It is very difficult to imagine exactly how a benefits tribunal would define "personal jewellery". In the absence of any case law, I can't really say, other than in strict legal terms I think it means jewellery that is owned by you AND that you could wear on your person. So a man's signet ring could never be part of your personal jewelley; but one might argue that a single singet ring that belonged to your father, could be part of your personal jewellery. If you did have 26Kg of gold jewellery, I think a tribunal would determine that this amount was not "personal jewellery" just on the basis of the amount - whether this is fair and/or correct is something that would have to be argued. If you DID have 26Kg of jewellery, I would like to think that you would not have claimed benefits because it would clearly be benefit fraud, no matter what the "rules" say.

    If you did not have this gold, then there cannot be evidence. I can't see that they will proceed on the basis of your sister's word, as they have to prove that you had this capital and they cannot prove it with just her word.

    As you have been goaded into making unwise comments in previous interviews, I think the best approach is not to attend. If they do have any new evidence, they will have to release this evidence to you before you go to court, so you will see it if you need to. I appreciate that it might be difficult sit on your hands, but there is nothing you can say that will convince them that you did not have this money EXCEPT for a lack of evidence that you had it - don't do something that would either give them this evidence OR give them hope that such evidence exists.
    The comments I post are my personal opinion. While I try to check everything is correct before posting, I can and do make mistakes, so always check official information sources before relying on my posts.
    • venison
    • By venison 8th Feb 19, 4:13 PM
    • 3,103 Posts
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    venison
    • #7
    • 8th Feb 19, 4:13 PM
    • #7
    • 8th Feb 19, 4:13 PM
    The bit that stands out for me is the 12k they found in your safe, did you ever declare this money OP? either to the dwp or the council?
    If you fail to prepare, you must be prepared to fail.
    • Debz71
    • By Debz71 8th Feb 19, 5:38 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Debz71
    • #8
    • 8th Feb 19, 5:38 PM
    • #8
    • 8th Feb 19, 5:38 PM
    The £12K was removed six weeks ago; the allegations relate to claims made many years prior.

    Thanks to all for taking the time to reply.

    I wasn't aware different rules applied to the value of personal jewellery in the past, and understand the logic of why they existed. However, as I implied, it's irrelevant from my perspective as my position was and remains that I don't and have never possessed a significant amount of gold jewellery - certainly never more than an estimated 200 grams at any given time comprising of several rings and an 85 gram 9ct curb chain necklace I've worn since my 18th birthday. I managed to bore myself by repeatedly challenging the DWP bloke and months later two police officers to furnish an iota of evidence to support the claims of their mysterious informant, whom I named each time, but they couldn't provide anything other than prevarication.

    Having read replies here I've determined to stay mum next Friday even if the same ogre is sat across the table trying to provoke me.

    I was more aggrieved by the police's actions in spite of them being perfectly polite and professional. The powers invested in the state's agents armed with a warrant gave them the legal authority to invade my home, and I could do nothing to stop them.
    • TELLIT01
    • By TELLIT01 8th Feb 19, 5:53 PM
    • 6,251 Posts
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    TELLIT01
    • #9
    • 8th Feb 19, 5:53 PM
    • #9
    • 8th Feb 19, 5:53 PM
    Your perception, rightly or wrongly, is not what matters when potential fraud is being investigated. The perception of DWP / police is the driver for investigation.

    A warrant isn't issued lightly. There must have been good cause to believe something untoward was going on. That's not to say that the information acted upon was accurate. Directly regarding the £12k, if for example you are not working there can be valid questions as to how you accumulated so much cash. It is the duty of the "state's agents" as you call them to do everything possible to recover cash if it is the proceeds of crime.
    I must stress that I am not accusing you of anything, simply applying the perspective of a neutral observer.
    • Debz71
    • By Debz71 8th Feb 19, 6:19 PM
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    Debz71
    There are too many what ifs and inconsistencies to offer any real help.

    I get the feeling there is more to the story then you are telling as you are sure no court would convict you, so from that I would infer that there is/was some gold at some point that you had.

    I would be inclined to do a thorough per-prepared statement outlining the facts of any gold/jewellery you had previously owned, what it was worth, where it cam to and where it went and see what com es of it. i would also get proper legal advice from a benefits lawyer.
    Originally posted by tomtom256
    Yes, there's a great deal more involved than what I outlined. That initial message dragged on a bit and I thought I'd better end it otherwise it would grow to War and Peace proportions.

    For more background, my sister and I had a huge falling out early in 2018. I told her never to darken my door again and over the proceeding weeks she realised I was not for turning which meant she'd receive no further financial assistance from me, nor would I house her again when she was in one of her numerous crises. This was precipitated when she was staying with me. I returned home early one day to discover a locksmith trying to open my safe. She had summoned them to open it without my knowledge by pretending to be the homeowner who had mislaid its key.

    Offended, she evidently made good on her threats to cause me as much grief as her imagination would allow which has resulted in having strangers pore over my financial history along with our late mother's bank statements from decades ago being produced as if they were smoking gun evidence in a major criminal trial.

    As briefly as I can, mother ran a jewellery market stall for many years for up to a year or so before she passed when her health deteriorated. She liquidated all her stock and withdrew the cash in stages, along with other savings she had, in the months preceding her death. The police demonstrated via her bank account records the the sum totalled £200K, and that my share was half of that but I had bagged the lot, supposedly. They also alleged that she had acquired a huge stash of privately held gold jewellery by making cash purchases for items that were sold to her as scrap with no questions asked regarding the identity of the sellers or the provenance of what they sold. They believed most of it originated from home burglaries. Their allegations rested entirely upon the word of their unnamed source. "What became of the cash?" and "what became of all that jewellery?" they kept asking. "I had no idea a pile of cash or a pile of gold ever existed," I kept replying parrot fashion.

    Mum's estate totalled £125K: £5K in her current account and her home was valued at £120K. Her £5K life assurance policy didn't form part of her estate. Sis gifted me her half share of the property once it was formally settled. "Why did she gift you her only asset worth £60K when she survived on welfare payments?" they also asked in slightly different ways over and over. I suggested they might direct that query to her on at least three occasions before one stated they already had and she had informed them it was in return for £60K cash I had paid her. In that instant their whole 'our sources' and 'information received suggests' charade ended.

    Kay was successfully prosecuted by the DWP in either 2003 or 2004 for not informing them her net worth became £60K in 2000 and that she wasn't entitled to claim anything means-tested from that day to when they caught up with her as she was above the relevant threshold. It was quite a sum, I forget whether it was a £16K or £26K overpayment, but she avoided a spell in clink. She was denied benefits for a considerable period which proved a blessing in disguise as she had to shape up by getting her first ever job and paying her own way. Then once she qualified again she resumed her life of idleness at everyone else's expense as a hopeless drug fiend and with it adjudged too ill to work.

    The tale she constructed for the council/DWP didn't involve a giant stack of cash. It concerned gold jewellery only, of which - as with the police - they singularly failed to provide any evidence of its existence. Initially the DWP chap indicated I had sold some of it to pay off sis for her share of mother's property, then somehow years later I had all of it again.

    I'll leave an update when next week's over with.
    • Debz71
    • By Debz71 8th Feb 19, 6:34 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Debz71
    Your perception, rightly or wrongly, is not what matters when potential fraud is being investigated. The perception of DWP / police is the driver for investigation.

    A warrant isn't issued lightly. There must have been good cause to believe something untoward was going on. That's not to say that the information acted upon was accurate. Directly regarding the £12k, if for example you are not working there can be valid questions as to how you accumulated so much cash. It is the duty of the "state's agents" as you call them to do everything possible to recover cash if it is the proceeds of crime.
    I must stress that I am not accusing you of anything, simply applying the perspective of a neutral observer.
    Originally posted by TELLIT01
    Thanks for that. I agree with your reasoning other than I don't believe the evidence merited a warrant being signed. I'll do my utmost to discover who did sign it to ask them to justify their decision. If I can and do get a response but am unhappy with it I'll question the competency of the person at the highest authority.

    The £12K cash taken isn't an issue as I haven't been in receipt of state aid for a long while and the digital trail to it was easily established and accepted.
    • Gold_Shogun
    • By Gold_Shogun 9th Feb 19, 1:44 AM
    • 236 Posts
    • 213 Thanks
    Gold_Shogun
    To the OP [Debz71]
    Hi Debz71,
    You have my deepest sympathy !!

    I was & am a Trustee for my very elderly (but not dead) Dad and also a Joint Trustee & Executor along with my siblings for my Late Mum's Estate from the 1990's ... Said Estate being ALL & WHOLLY left for the benefit of her Minor Grandchildren ONLY, and my siblings & I being absolute NON-beneficiaries (apart from circa £100 total of ornaments, trinkets, & family photos).

    I experienced much the same as you (and THEN some!) about 9 years ago, when a gang of 15-20 Police + Council + DWP terrorists raided my home in the wee hours, searched & smashed up my home, stole practically every single one of the thousands of original Records & Documents from my files for the past 60 years AND have since supposedly "lost" many of them [namely, many of the ones helpful to me], and dragged my soulmate & I off to a Police Station, and then interrogated us both separately for over 15 hours each.

    During said interrogations by a "3-person tag-team" allocated to each of us were a huge number of outrageously false accusations such as for just a couple of examples, ... accusing me of either killing my Dad OR keeping his natural death a secret AND burying his body in our garden so I could sell his house and steal his Pension (My Dad is NOT dead) ... and accusing me of failing to obtain probate in order "steal" my Late Mum's Estate and that they had checked at the local Probate Office and there were supposedly NO records of any probate for my Mum (said whilst the interrogator had the Court's original Probate Documents in his actual hands at the time) ... and many, many other false allegations.
    To be fair to the Police, the Police acted MUCH more honourable & professional (and repeatedly pointed out to us that they were "merely" acting for & on behalf of the DWP & Council) than the DWP & Council Officials themselves (who acted very aggressively & oppressively ... like they had seen too many episodes of "The Sweeney")

    I don't want to go into too much detail here as (a) it should be private family matters, and (b) after EIGHT Years I am still straightening out the FALSE allegations and subsequent corrupt actions of the DWP & Council, which caused me to have a mental breakdown and has effectively destroyed my entirely innocent family.
    .... Suffice to say I have won ALL (Every Single One) of my DWP, Council Tax, HMCTS Appeals and Court Cases, but it took me many, many Years to do, and the DWP & Council are still trying to destroy us in order to "try to justify" their original corrupt & incompetent actions & investigations and the waste of tens or hundreds of thousands of pounds of taxpayers money in their corrupt campaign .... In essence, the more I win, the more determined the DWP & Council are/become to try to destroy us.

    I have only told you the above so that you know that any advice or views I give here stem from my own personal long-term experiences of dealing with the DWP + Council + Police and are the result of many years of having to learn & research these sort of matters and "Case Histories" of other people I have come across over the years.

    I've been invited to attend an interview under caution next week at my local council offices concerning alleged benefit fraud they suspect I committed some years ago (in 2004 and 2008/2009) amounting to an overpayment totalling in excess of £3,000 for however many months' worth of Unemployment and Council Tax Benefit I claimed during those two periods. I spoke to a solicitor acquaintance last weekend who strongly advised I should attend so as to help determine what new evidence they may have, but I already know they haven't any whatsoever other than what they possess which consists entirely of the uncorroborated word of one person

    I likely will attend and stick to mostly "no comment" replies ...
    Originally posted by Debz71
    I would strongly suggest that the advice of your solicitor acquaintance is very POOR advice ...AND... I would recommend it would be in your best interests NOT to attend ... Please read & consider the following link very carefully. Especially the sections concerning giving "No Comment" IUCs and Potential "Adverse Inference"
    https://crimebodge.com/had-an-interview-under-caution-letter-heres-why-you-should-bin-it/


    Also related to this is an unresolved police investigation into my financial circumstances. Five weeks back they searched my home under warrant very thoroughly. To say I was unimpressed would be an understatement. It was evident from the outset they expected to discover a very substantial ("26 kilos of the stuff") hoard of gold jewellery but found none other than two rings and necklace I was wearing. They seized £12K cash from a safe, though, and arrested me on suspicion of handling stolen goods (non-existent gold jewellery) and money laundering (the £12K).

    Their questioning was unlike the council/DWP inquisition I'd received previously in that benefits weren't touched upon but they were every bit as interested in the gold I supposedly once had possession of and (they believed) still did and what's more their "information suggested" was the proceeds of crime, and that I may have committed "a form" of probate fraud with regard to my late mother's estate I was joint beneficiary of (along with sis) in 2000 which, they said, could have Inheritance Tax implications as their "sources indicated" I was complicit in not declaring her "£200K cash savings".
    Originally posted by Debz71
    I had similar false accusations thrown at me, and it took me a LONG while to rebuild my records & get replacement certified copies of the documents needed to disprove the false allegations due to them stealing my Original Records and refusing to disclose, copy, or allow my Barrister or I to access the originals they have stolen.

    You will hopefully find the following links of help to you :-

    https://crimebodge.com/why-silence-is-your-greatest-defence-against-the-police/

    https://crimebodge.com/how-police-officers-get-away-with-lying-in-court/

    https://crimebodge.com/your-solicitor-is-not-your-friend/
    (I have generally found that "General Defence-Solicitors" are VERY unknowledgeable with the Law as applicable to Trusts, Estates, and Benefit Entitlement and Law)

    It was simplicity to satisfy the lead detective that the cash taken was legitimately earned but am increasingly frustrated by delays in its return.
    Originally posted by Debz71
    https://crimebodge.com/suing-the-police-for-unlawful-seizure-of-goods/

    ..... Please Note :- Whilst these links generally refer to "Police Interactions" ... The advice in all these links is also EQUALLY applicable to DWP & Council interactions, as my experience has entirely proved to my satisfaction that the DWP & Council Officials would outright lie to the HMCTS & Courts as a matter of "Normal Practice", AND would then "completely change their current fairy-story" whenever I outright disproved their false claims & lies.

    You may also find this "The Story Behind This Website" page of that website to be interesting reading :-
    https://crimebodge.com/the-story-behind-this-website/

    And for the Record & the Benefit of any Potential Trolls that may try to claim that I am some sort of "career criminal" akin to Norman Stanley Fletcher ... I confirm that the ONLY conviction of any sort whatsoever in my life that I have is for a 3-point speeding conviction in the early 1990's.

    Best Regards & wished for the future, and I hope this helps you NOT to get falsely entrapped or framed by the DWP / Council / Police.
    Last edited by Gold_Shogun; 09-02-2019 at 1:49 AM. Reason: Spelling Correction
    Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
    Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.

    - Benjamin Franklin
    • tomtom256
    • By tomtom256 9th Feb 19, 8:20 AM
    • 1,162 Posts
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    tomtom256
    Please don't take this the wrong way, it's written from an investigator's viewpoint.

    They believe that you were implicit in whatever your mother was doing before she ceased trading and as she is no longer with us, they want to pin any potential offence's, if any on you, as it would be any "easy win".

    I presume they have obtained evidence etc via bank statements/financial records from your mum's account's and copies of your statements/financial records. They would then have cross referenced these looking to join the dots so to speak.

    Do you know if any of these show payments to you? If not, just keep denying everything and state that you had no idea what your Mum was doing with her business or what she did financially.

    Give them a copy of any probate/will showing what was left of her estate and then ask them to prove any alleged wrong doing on your part with regards to this money/gold.

    In respect of the £12k, can you legally prove where this has come from, as they may try the old Proceeds of Crime Act on you if you can't.
    • John G Jones
    • By John G Jones 9th Feb 19, 8:25 AM
    • 530 Posts
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    John G Jones
    so what happened to the £120k that you got from your mother’s estate, and why did your sister gift you her half?
    Last edited by John G Jones; 09-02-2019 at 9:29 AM.
    • huckster
    • By huckster 9th Feb 19, 9:38 AM
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    • 1,574 Thanks
    huckster
    "As briefly as I can, mother ran a jewellery market stall for many years for up to a year or so before she passed when her health deteriorated. She liquidated all her stock and withdrew the cash in stages, along with other savings she had, in the months preceding her death. The police demonstrated via her bank account records the the sum totalled £200K, "

    When you read the above, a market stall handling £200k of jewellery business, then you can probably understand the interest being shown by Police and DWP.

    Given the seriousness of the allegations being made, it might be wise to employ a Solicitors, if you can afford to do so. If they attend any interview with you, I suspect that those interviewing you would be on their best behaviour.

    It is probably better to resolve this situation as quickly as possible, rather than allow it to drag on. You can't underestimate the health impact that long running stressfull issues can have. Even if you are not being contacted, it will still be in the back of your mind and cause anxiety.
    The comments I post are personal opinion. Always refer to official information sources before relying on internet forums. If you have a problem with any organisation, enter into their official complaints process at the earliest opportunity, as sometimes complaints have to be started within a certain time frame.
    • Debz71
    • By Debz71 9th Feb 19, 2:45 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Debz71
    Thanks again to those who have taken the time to add their advice and observations. I'll study the information at the links tomorrow when I have all day to do so.

    I've grown to hate the G word (gold) since last summer. There was no heap of it left to my sister and I almost 20 years ago, and the DWP nor the Council Tax people nor the police have produced a scintilla of evidence to the contrary - nor will they as none exists. All they have is the word of one person who created it in her mind. The police must be aware of her long criminal history (shoplifting mostly, along with begging, benefit fraud and a commercial burglary that I know of) and is why I'm aghast they have afforded her claims any credibility.

    Before all this what I knew of the justice system revolved around storylines in TV shows, now I'm aware that authorities can access all sorts of private data without the knowledge or consent of those under their spotlight.

    - So what happened to the £120k that you got from your motherís estate, and why did your sister gift you her half? -

    I moved to her home, which is where I reside today. This is a substantial property, far too big for one person but it's manageable. Its building insurance value has quadrupled during the intervening years as with most others due to rocketing property prices UK wide. That has long been a source of angst and much jealousy for my accuser who forever urged me to downsize and with it help her financially with some of the proceeds. In reality - "I'll hand it to drug dealers in exchange for powder to snort". As for your other question, it's the identical response to what others who asked received which I quoted in an earlier message.

    - I presume they have obtained evidence etc via bank statements/financial records from your mum's account's and copies of your statements/financial records. They would then have cross referenced these looking to join the dots so to speak.

    Do you know if any of these show payments to you? If not, just keep denying everything and state that you had no idea what your Mum was doing with her business or what she did financially.

    Give them a copy of any probate/will showing what was left of her estate and then ask them to prove any alleged wrong doing on your part with regards to this money/gold. -


    They showed me her bank transactions that highlighted a series of cash withdrawals up to three or four months before she died. All were for sums of £10K and £20K. I wasn't availed of any copies of my bank records by them covering that period or any other (unlike the council/DWP who did). There was no inference she made unusual or high payments to me or anyone else. Their premise was she did so for her beneficiaries to evade paying Inheritance Tax. They maintained that not only did I become the custodian of £200K cash but valuable precious metals too that should have been included in her estate, and in addition I had swindled sis out of her share of both and had used some of my ill-gotten gains to induce her to surrender her interest in mum's house.

    They padded that theory by suggesting she had entrusted me with all the bounty because sis was "vulnerable" and "not good with managing money". She, sis, then as now, consorted with fellow junkies and other undesirables who'd rob anything, including people's homes, and they all knew mum would purchase any jewellery with no questions asked.

    They had a copy of the probate. They are publicly available documents for a price. They had no issue with its content, a legal firm handled that affair. I had a duty solicitor beside me who became more irked than I over the same questions essentially being asked. She explained afterwards that the CPS and not the police decide whether to prosecute and they do so only when there's a realistic prospect of success. She remarked that the two officers had spent 40 minutes "chancing their arm and got nowhere" which put a spring in my step.
    • Afraid of Kittens
    • By Afraid of Kittens 9th Feb 19, 6:11 PM
    • 226 Posts
    • 252 Thanks
    Afraid of Kittens
    Lets get this straight.

    The Police have no evidence apart from the statement of your sister.

    Your sister has stated that 20 or so years ago your late mother used to buy vast amounts of stolen jewellery for cash and instead of selling on this jewellery for cash she instead horded it.

    Where did she get the spare cash to buy this huge hoard of jewellery? And why didn't she sell it?

    The case is based on the heresay of a drug addict who is angry you won't sell up and give her cash.

    How can you disprove something that didn't happen 20 years ago!

    Sounds like your sister is making false and malicious allegations.
    I enjoy flower arranging, kittens, devil worship, the study of serial killers and their methods and road kill jigsaws.
    • Gold_Shogun
    • By Gold_Shogun 9th Feb 19, 8:13 PM
    • 236 Posts
    • 213 Thanks
    Gold_Shogun
    I've grown to hate the G word (gold) since last summer. There was no heap of it left to my sister and I almost 20 years ago, and the DWP nor the Council Tax people nor the police have produced a scintilla of evidence to the contrary - nor will they as none exists. All they have is the word of one person who created it in her mind. The police must be aware of her long criminal history (shoplifting mostly, along with begging, benefit fraud and a commercial burglary that I know of) and is why I'm aghast they have afforded her claims any credibility.
    Originally posted by Debz71
    A further point that occurred to me that you might want to consider IF you decide to answer any future questions or IUCs is the what appears be a quite ridiculous claims of your sister / the authorities as to "about 26 kilograms of gold" ....

    I have just checked the current scrap value of 26kg of gold :-
    IF it was ALL low-grade 9ct gold, the current value would be circa £302,000 ;
    IF it was ALL high-grade 22ct gold, the current value would be circa £740,000 ...

    It obviously wouldn't have been the same many years ago, but it would still have been extremely substantial at whatever the relevant time was .... For example, I know that in the financial-crash gold rush period of circa 2010-2012, the value would have been not far off double the current price.

    The point being is that due to gold-dealer record-keeping & money-laundering & know-your-client regulations, it would be almost impossible for the average person to easily or legimately dispose of or sell THAT MUCH gold without leaving one hell of an "Audit Trail" in whatever institutions or businesses did the buying, and they are all bound by law to pay by cheque or into a traceable account AND to supply records to the Authorities.

    Even IF 26kg were to be sold for cash on the Black/Criminal Market, it would be out of the league of all but major players and would still leave the "purported seller" trying to "hide" hundreds of thousands of pounds in Cash.

    In essence, in the absence of any such substantiating evidence, any reasonable person or authority or "the average man on the Clapham omnibus" would have to conclude the "26kg of gold" was nothing more than a (potentially malicious) fantasy allegation.

    As per my OP, my advice still remains NOT to attend any such IUC, nor to be drawn in to trying to "justify" yourself or answer questions .... as the Authorities & Bodies you are dealing with are masters of deception & manipulation once they have a target in their sights.
    Last edited by Gold_Shogun; 09-02-2019 at 8:14 PM. Reason: typo
    Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
    Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.

    - Benjamin Franklin
    • John G Jones
    • By John G Jones 9th Feb 19, 9:23 PM
    • 530 Posts
    • 724 Thanks
    John G Jones
    Thanks again s for your other question, it's the identical response to what others who asked received which I quoted in an earlier message.
    Originally posted by Debz71
    You didnít answer, you deflected the question.

    I think that everyone can see whatís going on here, Iím out, and hope justice takes its course.
    • Debz71
    • By Debz71 10th Feb 19, 3:08 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Debz71
    Lets get this straight.

    The Police have no evidence apart from the statement of your sister.

    Your sister has stated that 20 or so years ago your late mother used to buy vast amounts of stolen jewellery for cash and instead of selling on this jewellery for cash she instead horded it.

    Where did she get the spare cash to buy this huge hoard of jewellery? And why didn't she sell it?

    The case is based on the heresay of a drug addict who is angry you won't sell up and give her cash.

    How can you disprove something that didn't happen 20 years ago!

    Sounds like your sister is making false and malicious allegations.
    Originally posted by Afraid of Kittens
    Yours is a concise and accurate summation. It's all the more infuriating because it's a matter of record she's a Tom Pepper.
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