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  • AlanG
    keeping Day and Night rate (10 hr) ??
    Hi,

    I think this is where people often get confused and their Suppliers don't help in not explaining things properly.

    This is how it works in the elec industry:

    - each region has a list of meters they can fit. Often these meters are available in many regions e.g. common E7 or single rate credit metering are often found with the same manufacturer brand in many regions.

    - however, some regions from prior to privatisation (often referred to as market start up) still have meters from years ago that were individual to their region only

    - under privatisation, ALL Suppliers must have the ability to support any type of meter, no matter what type of region

    - Suppliers have a list of tariffs that should be the equivalent to the type of meter

    The Supplier cannot change the times on the meter timeswitch unless they request an engineer go out to do so. Now, they can't simply change an 8.5hr off peak meter to a 7hr off peak if the manufacturers meter type will not support it. Otherwise, you get a black whole in data between agents and Suppliers and it can prevent you from changing Supplier later.

    So, in your case you still get your full 10 hours at off peak on the meter.Now, the Supplier may have you on say E7, but unless they come out to you and either change the clock times on the timeswitch from 10 to 7 hours (if possible by meter type) or they have to send out an engineer to actually change the whole meter. If they do this, you would change meter and tariff and go onto 7 hours off peak.

    If they don't come out and just accept you in the switch, you continue to have a meter with a timeswitch that will click over and give you 10 hours off peak. These meters are usually 2 rate, which means that all the off peak elec usage goes onto the off peak dial. This doesn't matter whether it's 2, 7, 10 or 18 hours. Your Suppliers gets the readings in and then just bills the off peak dial against the off peak part of your bill. The same applies to the day rate.

    So, to a Supplier it just dosesn't affect how they bill you at all where the tariff has the same number of rate (so, if the meters got 2 dials and your bill is day rate & night rate it bills easly no matter what your off peak hours)

    Does that make sense?
    Originally posted by Terrylw1
    Hi Terry

    Ok thanks. The questions I have is
    1) can I insist on staying on my present 10 hour cheap tariff (20.30 to 06.30 hrs)(even at slightly enhanced rates) Or can my supplier insist to change my timer to 7 hours. See my bolded text below.

    2) When I change suppliers , what is the chances of the new supplier spotting my favourable tariff and forcing a change by changing my meter as above. Will I be better off staying put with my present supplier . As you can imagine those 3 hrs off peak rate are very valuable to me. I have changed once to Ebico (Southern ) without "getting spotted" but am wary to change in future.

    3 ) my meters are quite old anyway. Meter was replaced and is marked 08 '87 and mechanical timer was put in some years ago. It has a plate marked Code 4 '87 . Dont these by law need to be replaced every 20 years or less?

    The history.
    When I bought my flat in 1983 I took over the meter and supplier was Eastern. The 10 hour tariff was called Day and Night rate.Later I understood that the rate wasn't available to new customers but existing clients could stay on until they voluntarily relinquished it. They couldnt be forced off. (so I believe)
    Sometime after June 2004 Powergen changed my tariff to Economy 7 without informing me. They havent changed my meter or timer.
    So Where do I stand, I suppose not many suppliers support the Day and Night rate.

    Thanks for any help. I LOVE my Day and Night rate .

    Regards

    Alan
    Last edited by AlanG; 28-03-2008 at 4:04 AM. Reason: tidied up
  • Terrylw1
    Hi Terry

    Ok thanks. The questions I have is
    1) can I insist on staying on my present 10 hour cheap tariff (20.30 to 06.30 hrs)(even at slightly enhanced rates) Or can my supplier insist to change my timer to 7 hours. See my bolded text below.

    2) When I change suppliers , what is the chances of the new supplier spotting my favourable tariff and forcing a change by changing my meter as above. Will I be better off staying put with my present supplier . As you can imagine those 3 hrs off peak rate are very valuable to me. I have changed once to Ebico (Southern ) without "getting spotted" but am wary to change in future.

    3 ) my meters are quite old anyway. Meter was replaced and is marked 08 '87 and mechanical timer was put in some years ago. It has a plate marked Code 4 '87 . Dont these by law need to be replaced every 20 years or less?

    The history.
    When I bought my flat in 1983 I took over the meter and supplier was Eastern. The 10 hour tariff was called Day and Night rate.Later I understood that the rate wasn't available to new customers but existing clients could stay on until they voluntarily relinquished it. They couldnt be forced off. (so I believe)
    Sometime after June 2004 Powergen changed my tariff to Economy 7 without informing me. They havent changed my meter or timer.
    So Where do I stand, I suppose not many suppliers support the Day and Night rate.

    Thanks for any help. I LOVE my Day and Night rate .

    Regards

    Alan
    Originally posted by AlanG
    Hi Alan,

    3) Meters are replaced when they reach a certain age but it depends on the type of meter and is set at an industry compliance level. Older mechanicals can be 25-30 years. The local Meter Operator has your Cert Date which tells them when they need to get it replaced. They religiously manage these updates because they liable in court for any injury sustained on a meter not changed in time. If you are unsure, contact your Supplier and ask them to clarify it with the Meter Operator. Suppliers get notified 12 months before it needs changing so they can keep an eye on the situation.

    1) Your Supplier has to agree your tariff with you, they cannot just change the whole basis of your tariff without your consent (unless it's a price change of course)

    2) Day & night rate meters are one of the most common, but they are usually 7-8 hour off peak times. E10 has 10 hours off peak but it means you have 2 MPAN's and tis prevents you easily changing as not all Suppliers can bill them in their systems. You just sound like you've got a 10 hour off peak of some kind which is quite an old tariff. If the timeswitch on the meter is set to 10 hours and the meter is still available in Market Domain Data (MDD, which is a list of the all the meters and how they can be billed nationally) then you can have 10 hour off peak. The difficulty is with the Suppliers tariffs, not all have 10 hour off peak tariffs.

    In your case, if you have 1 MPAN (hence a standard type of peak/off peak meter with 2 dials for readings) then they may have changed you to E7 because they don't support a 10 hour off peak meter.

    However, you have got to remember that Suppliers just bill what the meter readers send in (and the readings you give) so what matters is what your timeswitch is set to.

    So, if your meter has 2 dials hence 2 readings, you could be 1 hour off peak or 23 hours off peak but it makes no difference to the Supplier - they just need the readings. So if your timeswitch switches your consumption to your off peak dial for 10 hours a day, your Supplier will bill those 10 hours against the off peak rate on your bill.

    If the timeswitch gives you 10 hours off peak, then you get 14 hours at peak. The meter is in charge of the timings and how it records, not the tariff you are on with your Supplier which is where people get mixed up.

    Does that make sense? It's not always very clear to explain in a non verbal way???

    When the Meter Operator changes your meter due to age, they always fit the same type but if it's no longer available as it's what we call "preserved" then they make have to fit a different kind and you may then lose some of this off peak time. Thats worth asking the engineer when he's there.

    Be wary of Supplier's wanting to change your meter to E7 if this 10 hour set up works better for you.

    In terms of whether it's cheaper, if you are on an E7 tariff but actually get 10 hours off peak then you will be better off as you are getting cheaper enerngy for 3 hours longer than other people who have a 7 hour timeswitch. You reach your breakeven point quicker than others because you get the extra 3 hours.

    Suppliers can't force you to change the meter either, they have to give you the option to leave and if the meter is supported in the market or preserved, they can't force a change.

    Regards


    Terry
    It's better to live 1 year as a tiger than a lifetime as a worm...but then, whoever heard of a wormskin rug!!!
  • marc444
    i hate having to deal with all this lol
    Originally posted by r!!!6d
    yeah im feeling your pain,

    what i want to know now is, how come my storage heating is not timed to come on, i can turn mine on anytime of the day, yet it was timed in the summer last year.... im on prepay key meter...
  • dugmuzz
    Night Rate with Suppliers
    Hello,

    I have worked in the market for many years as a Enegry Broker for the major suppliers and the way it works for Night Rates is:

    It is the regional Distributors who determine the Night Rate, not that of the suppliers, so it is all dependent on the region you live in but mainly between the hours of 12am - 7.30am.

    The best advice, is to ask your supplier directly.

    Rgds

    Doug
  • Terrylw1
    Hello,

    I have worked in the market for many years as a Enegry Broker for the major suppliers and the way it works for Night Rates is:

    It is the regional Distributors who determine the Night Rate, not that of the suppliers, so it is all dependent on the region you live in but mainly between the hours of 12am - 7.30am.

    The best advice, is to ask your supplier directly.

    Rgds

    Doug
    Originally posted by dugmuzz
    There are 2 types of meter out there, time switch and radio teleswitch.

    Time switch are fixed, fairly inflexible and are available to all on Elexon's website.

    Radio teleswitch are more flexible as the signal is sent nightly to the meter. The MOP defaults the settings when installed and the next nightly update corrects it.

    Time switch meters are configured by the MOP on the bench using software that uses the settings on Elexon's website.

    In order to create any meter time switch settings into the elec market, the supplier has to raise a market domain data change request. No other party is allowed the create time switch settings, distributors certainly cannot.

    The only reason distributors have in the past is in the times before deregulation. Historically, what a supplier now is, used to purely be a billing office. That's all changed due to deregulation, suppliers now get involved in more much and tariffs/setting creation are for them since it is their product to the customer.

    In terms of settings, there are many different E7's out there are they differ per region and even inside their own region where there are multiple E7's.
    It's better to live 1 year as a tiger than a lifetime as a worm...but then, whoever heard of a wormskin rug!!!
  • rhoc79
    I feel the off peak times should be longer lets say 12 hours 6pm - 6am for people on low income or on benefits
    • Bluebirdman of Alcathays
    • By Bluebirdman of Alcathays 5th Feb 14, 9:57 AM
    • 2,748 Posts
    • 3,171 Thanks
    Bluebirdman of Alcathays
    I feel the off peak times should be longer lets say 12 hours 6pm - 6am for people on low income or on benefits
    Originally posted by rhoc79
    Why should I subsidise the Mick Philpotts of this world even further?
    • Celyn
    • By Celyn 11th Feb 14, 7:09 PM
    • 62 Posts
    • 120 Thanks
    Celyn
    Why should I subsidise the Mick Philpotts of this world even further?
    Originally posted by Bluebirdman of Alcathays
    I'm pretty sure that not every impecunious person is a multiple murderer, you know.
    • Bluebirdman of Alcathays
    • By Bluebirdman of Alcathays 11th Feb 14, 7:29 PM
    • 2,748 Posts
    • 3,171 Thanks
    Bluebirdman of Alcathays
    I said nothing of the sort, you know.

    The most impecunious in our society are not the work shy, child producing !!!!less among us. The most impecunious are the working poor; those on 0 hours contracts and those on minimum wage. Let's extend the economy 7 hours for them, before we do it for the fag smokers of James Turner Street.
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