Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

LittleVermin · 3 July 2012 at 10:44AM

HateLPG wrote: »

It appears that there is absolutely no consumer protection whatsoever for LPG users.

Indeed. That was the point of my post.

Search back in this thread and there are examples where determined and, yes, obviously smart people have got LPG companies to redress wrongs - but usually based on threatened reputational damage not any consumer protection available to the man in the street.

And that I find truly shocking.

Jaspersmum · 4 July 2012 at 9:59AM

Sorry I hadn't changed my location - I moved to Yorkshire last week, I have just worked out how to change it.

I have had a reply from Avanti Gas

Bulk LPG Vessel

We are committed to Health and Safety and vessels to which we deliver must adhere to current LPG Codes of Practice. We would conduct a simple site survey and where the vessel is sound, its siting compliant, and access adequate we would approach your current supplier and arrange to purchase the LPG vessel.

Tank Rentals/Service Charges

An Annual Standing charge will be payable for the vessel. This covers the vessel rental, maintenance and testing. This also provides you with 24hr emergency cover, from our engineers, should any of our equipment fail.

Above Ground vessel rental is £60.00 plus 5% VAT per vessel per annum

Gas Price

We would be pleased to offer you our best price of 43.9 pence per litre plus 5% VAT. Under our standard contract this price would be guaranteed for 6-months and would be variable thereafter. Should any increase/s exceed 5 pence per litre within any 6 month period you would have the option of terminating without any penalty.

The gas can be delivered on an automatic basis to ensure continuity of supply.

Supply Agreement

We will ask you to enter into a 2-year supply agreement with us.

Payment Terms

Either a fixed or variable Direct Debit can be arranged to settle the account. Many of our domestic customers choose to pay their account by a fixed direct debit as this spreads the cost of Gas evenly throughout each year.

So the price is better than Calor so far, will check out the links kindly posted.

I have had a look at the tank but cannot find how much it holds, it shows it is just over half full, when I have tackled the triffids in the garden surrounding it, I may be able to see more information.

Thanks for your replies so far - I have realised that this LPG stuff is a mine field.

:eek:

Ace_gas_guzzler · 4 July 2012 at 10:16AM

I'd be most grateful if LittleVermin could provide a link to the July bulk prices, just to get an idea of what's happening in the Wonderful World That Is LPG. I resisted the temptation to sign a new contract based on suppliers' June prices in the hope that a further drop might be on the cards this month...... here's hoping!

LittleVermin · 4 July 2012 at 8:19PM

Jaspersmum wrote: »

.....I moved to Yorkshire last week, .......
I have had a reply from Avanti Gas

Bulk LPG Vessel.......must adhere to current LPG Codes of Practice.
......
Tank Rentals/Service Charges .....Above Ground vessel rental is £60.00 plus 5% VAT per vessel per annum

Gas Price: We would be pleased to offer you our best price of 43.9 pence per litre plus 5% VAT. Under our standard contract this price would be guaranteed for 6-months and would be variable thereafter. Should any increase/s exceed 5 pence per litre within any 6 month period you would have the option of terminating without any penalty.
****
.....when I have tackled the triffids in the garden surrounding it, I may be able to see more information.

Thanks for your replies so far - I have realised that this LPG stuff is a mine field.

"a minefield"? Hmm. I'd go so far as saying it's a minefield without any maps. Maybe there are at least two sorts of triffids awaiting you! At least you can hack down the pseudo-vegetative variety around your tank! The other sort? - I leave you to guess!

Anyway, Avanti are

pleased to offer you our best price of 43.9 pence per litre

....which is great! (Memo to self: remove tongue from cheek). Check out the post with prices which will be up shortly.

Yorkshire? A few independents for you - which might be worth a ring even if you appear to be outside their delivery area shown on their websites:

[FONT=&quot]Rectory Gas Supplies (most of Yorkshire & North Lincolnshire):[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]http://www.rectorygassupplies.co.uk/bulk_lpg.html[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]BDS Fuels (Cumbria, North Lancashire, The Fylde, North Yorkshire, Northumberland and the Scottish Borders):[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]http://www.bdsfuels.co.uk/[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Energas (Lincolnshire, Yorkshire, Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire and the East Midlands):[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]http://www.energasenergysolutions.co.uk/at_home.htm[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Innergy (West Yorkshire and beyond including Bradford, Wakefield, Halifax, Huddersfield, Doncaster and Barnsley):[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]http://www.innergylpg.co.uk/BulkLPG.htm[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Discount Gas Supplies (Doncaster):[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]http://www.discountbulkgas.com/gas/bulk/[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]And here are a couple of posts about BATA and BDS:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]BATA, N. Yorks (ponymad, 31-08-11):[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=46518733&postcount=988[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]BDS, W. Yorks (heather8, 03-09-11):[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=46611177&postcount=998[/FONT]

There may well be posts about some of the others, but I've no record.

Thanks for all the info about Avanti's offer - and peppering recent posts with 'thanks'! Did Avanti send you a draft contract so you can see the small print?

LittleVermin · 4 July 2012 at 8:59PM

Thanks to various sources and HateLPG's techno-wizardry here's the new improved chart for LPG prices:

lpg_price_info.php

but you might also like to check out Bloomberg for the very latest bulk prices in USD (here) and decide if you want to put off fixing your new 2 yr contract. Sadly bernithebiker, a very helpful MSE'er who was formerly an oil trader, has not answered my recent pms so can't get an opinion about whether the price has turned for the foreseeable future (i.e. next few months).

The prices from independents which post on-line have all gone down from last month:

Cardiff Gas ............... ...39ppl ...... ...down 3ppl
Extra Fuel ....................41.43ppl ..... down 5.04ppl
LP Gas Wales Direct ..... 42.9ppl ........down 3ppl

I've left out Carver because their tank rental is so high, and they require a 5 yr contract (see my post here).

So, again, will next month's prices from the independents go up - or down ... or stay roughly the same? Don't expect the prices from the majors to go down once you've signed a contract...because in the OFT's Off-grid Energy Report was:

"Suppliers told us that they do not pass on every increase and decrease in input costs, instead trying to minimise the frequency of price changes to the consumer. Data they have provided show that in both GB and NI, retail prices tend to not fluctuate as much as input costs."

Some of us seem to think they do not pass on any decrease, let alone every decrease!
..

HateLPG · 4 July 2012 at 11:40PM

Ace_gas_guzzler wrote: »

I resisted the temptation to sign a new contract based on suppliers' June prices in the hope that a further drop might be on the cards this month...... here's hoping!

If it was me, I would seriously consider renewing. Prices have come down hugely in the past few months, but both the Bloomberg prices and the Platts index have shown quite a sharp upturn over the last week or so (this doesn't yet show up on the graphs which are generated from figures averaged over the previous month). Every day that prices continue to rise (or indeed fail to fall), your chances of getting a really tasty deal reduces.

If you look at the graphs, you will see that for some reason (I neither know nor care not why) the wholesale price is now the lowest it has been since late 2009 and even if the prices do drop further (highly unlikely in my opinion) I doubt it will be a significant drop. If you hold out, you might just manage to shave the odd fraction of a penny off any offer price if you are lucky, but if the wholesale price rises sharply, you will get hit much harder and probably have to pay pennies more per litre if you hang around! In fact, as the suppliers can (obviously) already see this trend, I would suspect that their "best offer" prices are already creeping upwards.

Please be aware that I am merely a consumer and very much an industry outsider. I don't have a crystal ball or any kind of magic insight. This is just my gut-feel based on the figures that are available, but if I were in a position to fix a new 2-year price, I would do so now. With one very important exception:

I would NOT enter into any kind of contract with ANY supplier (e.g. Flogas) where the contract allows for any kind of unlimited price INCREASE linked to any index (see my earlier posts here and here for an explanation why); I would only ever want to enter into such a contract when I knew that prices were at a peak, therefore limiting their opportunity to pass on any kind of additional linked price increase. And even then, I would sign only under extreme duress and having exhausted every other possibility for keeping warm!

It is important not to confuse this with the type of contract often offered by the smaller independents where the price is openly published and FOLLOWS an index (e.g. ExtraFuel, Cardiff Gas, LP Gas Wales Direct). That kind of deal is eminently fair, with shared risk and shared benefit and I would happily consider such a contract.

As always in this "mine field of LPG stuff" (thank you Jaspersmum) it truly is a case of "Caveat Emptor", so keep your eyes wide open and (as I have said before), if you are offered a shiny new contract, read it until your eyes bleed before signing on the dotted line: Remember, as has been highlighted by recent posts from LittleVermin and bry54, there appears to be absolutely NO effective consumer protection for LPG users, whether statutory or otherwise. :mad:

frankie · 5 July 2012 at 10:29AM

Although I still have 12 months to run on my current contract I thought I'd test the market. Here's a quote from Avanti:

VANTI GAS (LPG) QUOTATION - Two Year Supply Agreement Price Price per litre 49.9 pence per litre + 5% vat - fixed for six months The Avantigas (LPG) Agreement is for two years and the Price Per Litre quoted is fixed for the first six months of the agreement and capped not to increase more than 5p in any six month period after that time should there be any global market increase which would effect all LPG pricing. Please note we are one of the lowest in the market for price capping once the fixed price ends. Rentals £15 per quarter + 5% vat for an above ground tank Or £25 per quarter + 5% vat for an underground tank The rental covers the vessel maintenance, insurance and the Avantigas 24hour, 365 day Emergency call out service.

This was based on my submitted usage of 1200 to 2000 ltrs per year (I know - low user), however it seems a bit steep looking at what others have achieved.

Thinking of it, can't really figure why usage should actually determine price, after all they will make less trips to my location thus lower delivery fuel, my electric company doesn't charge me more/less depending on how much I use. Just thinking this is yet another anomaly in the lpg market.

When my contract does come up for renewal I think I'll say 'don't know what my usage is, I'm just a gullible lpg consumer!!

ilikecookies · 5 July 2012 at 10:53AM

frankie wrote: »

Although I still have 12 months to run on my current contract I thought I'd test the market. Here's a quote from Avanti:

VANTI GAS (LPG) QUOTATION - Two Year Supply Agreement Price Price per litre 49.9 pence per litre + 5% vat - fixed for six months The Avantigas (LPG) Agreement is for two years and the Price Per Litre quoted is fixed for the first six months of the agreement and capped not to increase more than 5p in any six month period after that time should there be any global market increase which would effect all LPG pricing. Please note we are one of the lowest in the market for price capping once the fixed price ends. Rentals £15 per quarter + 5% vat for an above ground tank Or £25 per quarter + 5% vat for an underground tank The rental covers the vessel maintenance, insurance and the Avantigas 24hour, 365 day Emergency call out service.

This was based on my submitted usage of 1200 to 2000 ltrs per year (I know - low user), however it seems a bit steep looking at what others have achieved.

Thinking of it, can't really figure why usage should actually determine price, after all they will make less trips to my location thus lower delivery fuel, my electric company doesn't charge me more/less depending on how much I use. Just thinking this is yet another anomaly in the lpg market.

When my contract does come up for renewal I think I'll say 'don't know what my usage is, I'm just a gullible lpg consumer!!

Low usage charges irk me too. Ultimately I want to pay for what I use and not subsidise others using more or less.

That said my electricity supplier does it too - my first 900kw per quarter of daytime use (I'm on E7) are charged at double the rate of usage above 900kw (something like 20p vs 10p). I use very little electricity in the day and so never breach the 900kw mark and so always pay the higher rate. Does it really cost the electricity companies more to provide me with the first 900kw!!!

But then I guess this is the way of the world - you tend to get a discount on bulk buying whether at the supermarket, on your utilities, higher tiers of cashback for greater credit card spend ...

HateLPG · 5 July 2012 at 11:21AM

frankie wrote: »

Here's a quote from Avanti:

[A]VANTI GAS (LPG) QUOTATION - Two Year Supply Agreement Price Price per litre 49.9 pence per litre + 5% vat - fixed for six months...

...This was based on my submitted usage of 1200 to 2000 ltrs per year (I know - low user), however it seems a bit steep looking at what others have achieved.

IMHO, outrageously overpriced, even taking into account your low usage! If I were you, I'd find an independent supplier (Extra Fuel, I believe will deliver in Cornwall) who offers a variable price, linked to Platts or ANSI and have a chat with them. As you're such a low user, you will almost certainly get the best deal by aiming to top up in the summer when prices are low.

frankie wrote: »

Thinking of it, can't really figure why usage should actually determine price, after all they will make less trips to my location thus lower delivery fuel, my electric company doesn't charge me more/less depending on how much I use. Just thinking this is yet another anomaly in the lpg market.

Economics 101: In simple terms, any price for anything is made up of three elements - direct costs, overheads and profit:

The direct cost is the actual cost of the product plus any costs directly attributable to providing that product to you (e.g. tanker driver's time, diesel for the tanker etc etc) and will cover the large part of the ppl price you pay;
Overheads are the annual back office and support costs that are incurred at a fixed rate irrespective how much fuel you use. These cover things like account administration, driver training, insurance etc etc.
Profits shouldn't need explanation

To illustrate (in arbitrary round figures), lets say an LPG company spends £10,000 per year on account administration, training, insurance etc and has 100 customers. That means that on top of the direct cost of supplying and delivering the LPG, they need to generate an additional £100 of income from each customer. If you use just 1000 litres per year, they have to amortize that cost over just 1000 litres, i.e. you will have to pay an extra £100/1000 litres = 10 ppl (in this example) just to cover their overheads; If you use 5000 litres per year, that drops to just 2ppl extra (£100/5000 litres).

This is true for anything that you buy: There is always a discount available for buying in large enough quantities for exactly that reason.

rrj23 · 7 July 2012 at 11:05AM

Hello,

Need some advice.

I am looking to move into a 3 semi detached that runs on LPG. It has two coal/wood fires in the living rooms, one in each.
there are no long hall ways. I would be looking at 2 showers a day, the oven is gas and the water is running from the gas. It has a combi boiler and the oven is modern.

I would be looking at having two showers a day or one shower and one small bath for son. I work in the day so prob in the winter look at the heating on in the morning and fingers crossed use the wood fires for the evening. worst case scenario woud be heating once am and once pm.

Alos the house is i caerphilly. wales.

Would any one have any idea if this would cost a fortune or would anyone like to share their usage and costing?

Look forward to hearing from someone.

Thank You

rachel

Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

Comments

Categories

Get our FREE Weekly email full of deals & guides - and it’s spam-free