Universal Credit: SYSTEMATIC INJUSTICE

fooddestroyer
fooddestroyer Posts: 36 Forumite
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in Benefits & tax credits
My wife and I were placed on UC at the end of Oct 2018 after I became ill. I am a cross-border worker: I was working just over the border in Ireland, whilst living in N.Ireland, U.K.

Initially, as someone who paid taxes in Ireland I rightfully made a claim for Illness Benefit in the Irish system; my Doctor's medical cert stated that I'd be unfit for work for 12 weeks. I also called into my local Jobs and Benefits office in N.Ireland and was transparent about my situation. They placed my wife and I on UC from 26th Oct as we live in N.Ireland U.K and thus we have ultimate tax responsibility to/in U.K.

The weeks rolled by and I got a letter in December to say that I had been awarded Illness Benefit in the Irish system. I was also transparent with the Irish System (that I was on benefits in N.Ireland/U.K.) but they said just to make the U.K UC system aware and it should be no issue. I immediately informed UC by online journal on 20th Dec to which they said my situation would need to go to a "decision maker"?

I heard nothing, and even asked them how/if this Irish benefit would affect UC on 28th Dec on my journal. On 2nd Jan I got another message from UC on the journal asking me to provide more info on the Irish benefit award, which I did. No comment on the journal from them after....

So far we have got no money for January, and we received an embarrassing call from our landlady (who we have a signed tenancy agreement with) to say that UC had not paid her! We are a young family of four and this is the worst time of year for this to happen :(

I made a formal complaint via online journal (as no-one would help me at my local Jobs & Benefits office, or on the telephone) and got a call from a UC supervisor yesterday. She said that the "decision makers" are "snowed under" and it could take weeks for us to get a decision. The best they could offer was some sort of 'loan' to see us through. She had nothing to say to the fact that our tenancy agreement was violated needlessly and no apology on the behalf of a systematic failure against ordinary families like us.

I have been in touch with the Irish state department to say that I will not be sending in another medical cert as I am being penalised by the U.K. for this income. The Irish benefits advisors are aghast at this but they too don't have a solution: UC just unapologetically does as it wants.

I feel a great injustice is being done, more systemic than anything else. As I eagerly await the UC "decision makers" I am considering my rights - can/should I take this to a higher level - solicitor?? We are hurt, embarrassed, without adequate funds to live on basics.

Thoughtful considerations welcome.

Thanks.
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Comments

  • calcotti
    calcotti Posts: 15,696 Forumite
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    I don't think a solicitor is going to be of any help. Suggest contacting your local MP and asking if they can intercede.
    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Some rules may be different in other parts of UK.
  • Alice_Holt
    Alice_Holt Posts: 5,946 Forumite
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    As well as your MP, also try your local advice agency.

    One (quite technical) option would be a Judicial Review pre-action letter. You can find a pro-forma template online.
    http://england.shelter.org.uk/legal/courts_and_legal_action/pre_action_protocols/pre-action_protocol_for_judicial_review (Letter before claim para).
    This would be addressed to the DWP legal team covering NI.

    I understand this can be used in cases where unnecessary delay by the DWP is causing hardship. The intention is not to proceed to Judicial Review (which is very costly), but to get the matter in front of the DWP legal team. They then have to respond within 14 days.
    This may also be worthwhile, because your case looks complex and DWP decision makers can shy away from cases involving more complicated law in favour of easier cases.

    I haven't used this myself, but CPAG are suggesting this as a tactic given the current DWP chaos, and long waiting periods for tribunal hearings.

    I'm not sure if NI has law centres which may be able help - unfortunately in England legal aid cuts have severely reduced the provision of such advice.
    Alice Holt Forest situated some 4 miles south of Farnham forms the most northerly gateway to the South Downs National Park.
  • OhWow
    OhWow Posts: 383 Forumite
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    edited 10 January 2019 at 5:32PM
    fooddestroyer wrote: »
    I am a cross-border worker: I was working just over the border in Ireland, whilst living in N.Ireland, U.K.

    Initially, as someone who paid taxes in Ireland I rightfully made a claim for Illness Benefit in the Irish system; my Doctor's medical cert stated that I'd be unfit for work for 12 weeks.


    Don't the EU rules state that a cross border worker claims benefits from the EU country they pay their taxes too??? In this case the Republic of Ireland. The fact that the Republic of Ireland paid you benefits seems to comfirm this.

    Why aren't you claiming all your benefits from the Republic, instead of only asking them for sickness benefits?
  • calcotti
    calcotti Posts: 15,696 Forumite
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    OhWow wrote: »
    Don't the EU rules state that a cross border worker claims benefits from the EU country they pay their taxes too??? In this case the Republic of Ireland. The fact that the Republic of Ireland paid you benefits seems to comfirm this.

    Why aren't you claiming all your benefits from the Republic, instead of only asking them for sickness benefits?

    OP post says he pays tax in Ireland but has tax liability in UK as place of residence so I inferred he effectively has overseas earnings taxed at source but is still liable for UK taxation (and presumably there is some sort of cross border tax offsetting).
    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Some rules may be different in other parts of UK.
  • OhWow
    OhWow Posts: 383 Forumite
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    edited 10 January 2019 at 5:59PM
    calcotti wrote: »
    OP post says he pays tax in Ireland but has tax liability in UK as place of residence so I inferred he effectively has overseas earnings taxed at source but is still liable for UK taxation (and presumably there is some sort of cross border tax offsetting).


    The EU's "cross-border workers" have different rules under EU laws, for - tax law, right of residence, welfare entitlements.

    The Republic are already paying him benefits because he is an EU cross-border worker in their country. I wondered why he wasn't asking the Republic for any other benefits he needs too, instead of only asking them for sick benefits.
  • calcotti
    calcotti Posts: 15,696 Forumite
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    edited 10 January 2019 at 6:02PM
    OhWow wrote: »
    The EU's "cross-border workers" have different rules under EU laws, for these workers for - tax law, right of residence, welfare entitlements.

    The Republic are paying him benefits as he is an EU cross-border worker in their country. I wondered why he wasn't asking the Republic for any other benefits he needs too, instead of only asking them for sick benefits.

    Understood - I didn't mean to sound as if I was questioning whether or not he can do this. Just genuinely interested to know how this works for someone in this position (all a bit topical at the moment!). He appears to have a tax foothold in two places. I know there are regulations about who is the 'competent state' for benefits purposes but I have never had to wrestle with these regs and am not clear how they work.
    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Some rules may be different in other parts of UK.
  • OhWow
    OhWow Posts: 383 Forumite
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    edited 10 January 2019 at 6:58PM
    calcotti wrote: »
    Understood - I didn't mean to sound as if I was questioning whether or not he can do this. Just genuinely interested to know how this works for someone in this position (all a bit topical at the moment!).


    Sorry, I didn't mean to come across like I was talking down. :o An EEA country has to pay benefits to an EEA citizen worker who resides in that country and give them access to their healthcare system under the same terms as a citizen of that country can have.


    EU cross-border workers seem to have different rules and the OP resides in the UK and works in the Republic of Ireland. The Republic seem to have accepted they should pay benefits to the OP as they are paying. The UK seems to have agreed with that too?


    calcotti wrote: »
    He appears to have a tax foothold in two places. I know there are regulations about who is the 'competent state' for benefits purposes ...


    And healthcare comes into play too for the EU "cross-border workers" who work in one EEA country but "reside" in anothe EEA country. Healthcare would not be cheap for a family of six if they resided in the Republic of Ireland because their healthcare system is so expensive. NI is part of the UK and therefore has the NHS.
  • calcotti
    calcotti Posts: 15,696 Forumite
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    Found this in a slightly old CPAG article http://www.cpag.org.uk/content/european-nationals-and-sickness-benefits

    "The general rule is that the competent state is the state in which the claimant is working or treated as working. For those who are not currently economically active, the competent state is normally the state of residence. For payments classed as ‘special non-contributory benefits’... it is always the state of residence whose legislation applies.

    If an EEA national is resident in one member state (‘state A’) but, for example, works in another member state (‘state B’) such that it is her/his competent state under the general rule, for cash sickness benefits state B will normally be the competent state. For family members of such an EEA national, state B will also normally be the competent state for paying their cash sickness benefits, whatever state they themselves reside in."

    On this basis Ireland appears to be the competent state for sickness benefits. UC of course combines what used to be income based JSA/ESA, housing benefit and child tax credits. Seems to me that UC is therefore more than just a sickness benefit but I don't know what that means in terms of who pays what!!
    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Some rules may be different in other parts of UK.
  • OhWow
    OhWow Posts: 383 Forumite
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    edited 10 January 2019 at 7:42PM
    calcotti wrote: »
    Found this in a slightly old CPAG article http://www.cpag.org.uk/content/european-nationals-and-sickness-benefits

    "The general rule is that the competent state is the state in which the claimant is working or treated as working. For those who are not currently economically active, the competent state is normally the state of residence. For payments classed as ‘special non-contributory benefits’... it is always the state of residence whose legislation applies.

    If an EEA national is resident in one member state (‘state A’) but, for example, works in another member state (‘state B’) such that it is her/his competent state under the general rule, for cash sickness benefits state B will normally be the competent state. For family members of such an EEA national, state B will also normally be the competent state for paying their cash sickness benefits, whatever state they themselves reside in."

    On this basis Ireland appears to be the competent state for sickness benefits. UC of course combines what used to be income based JSA/ESA, housing benefit and child tax credits. Seems to me that UC is therefore more than just a sickness benefit but I don't know what that means in terms of who pays what!!






    "economically inactive" under the EU's 2004 Directive, refers to those EEA citizens who reside in another EEA country but are not in "genuine and effective" employment continuously e.g. student, self sufficient (living on their own means) etc


    Under EU rules, somebody who is sick, loses their job, stops work to give birth, retains their "worker rights" for a set time- remain economically active in that EEA country.


    The OP will likely have retained worker rights is "economically active" in the Republic of Ireland.I have no idea what they mean by ‘special non-contributory benefits’.



    You can have a read of how the UK (Home Office) assess of somebody is an EEA "qualified person" in the UK and the different types of "qualified person" the EU has and about retained worker rights etc. For the OP, it might be better to find the Republic of Ireland's rules on what a "qualified person" is in their country as every member state has different rules, as allowed under EU law.
    This is the UK one -
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/european-economic-area-nationals-qualified-persons
  • OhWow
    OhWow Posts: 383 Forumite
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    edited 10 January 2019 at 8:12PM
    fooddestroyer wrote: »
    My wife and I were placed on UC at the end of Oct 2018 after I became ill. I am a cross-border worker: I was working just over the border in Ireland, whilst living in N.Ireland, U.K.


    Are you a British citizen? Irish citizen? Or a citizen of another EEA country? What citizenship does your wife and children have?

    If you are a British or Irish citizen and all your family are too, then you have a right to live on the Island of Ireland, work, claim benefits and EU rules don't come into it at all!


    fooddestroyer wrote: »
    I have been in touch with the Irish state department to say that I will not be sending in another medical cert as I am being penalised by the U.K. for this income.


    How much is that Republic of Ireland sickness benefit?
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