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    • Rosieandjim
    • By Rosieandjim 18th May 19, 2:11 PM
    • 201Posts
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    Rosieandjim
    Deprivation of assets
    • #1
    • 18th May 19, 2:11 PM
    Deprivation of assets 18th May 19 at 2:11 PM
    Following on from the thread 'What can my mum do with her money' I am fuming that if I wanted to give my adult children some money It could be seen as me depriving myself of assets.


    However, when 2 relatives went into care I was told that if they could not afford the full care home costs I as a member of the family would have to make up the deficit this was said many times. As care becomes more expensive I dread to think how relatives can afford to do this?


    So it is ok for me to deprive myself of assets for relatives going into care but not to give a gift to my own children. It does not make sense to me. Would the authorities be happy for me to say when I need care 'well I have no money left as I have had to pay towards xyz who needed care?' thoughts please
Page 4
    • onwards&upwards
    • By onwards&upwards 19th May 19, 1:58 PM
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    onwards&upwards
    No it is not, top up is something that can be done while the LA are funding at least part of your care costs. Savings are taken into account on how much you contribute so they are being used up as part of your contribution, you canít use them to top up as well as that would mean your saving are depleted faster and the LA would have to pay more once your funds had run out.
    Originally posted by Keep pedalling

    So hereís a scenario, youíve lived for 4 or 5 years in an £800 a week care home paying for it yourself out of your savings, pension income and the proceeds from selling your home.

    You live longer than you expected and eventually you are down to 26,000 in capital.

    If you have a well off child or other relative then the council will pay their rate (letís say £500) happily and let your well off relative pay £300 and you get to stay where you are, where you have made friends, where the staff know you, your home.

    If you donít have any family, or they canít afford to help you, then the council are no longer willing to pay the £500 they would have been?
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 19th May 19, 2:09 PM
    • 6,804 Posts
    • 7,955 Thanks
    Keep pedalling
    So hereís a scenario, youíve lived for 4 or 5 years in an £800 a week care home paying for it yourself out of your savings, pension income and the proceeds from selling your home.

    You live longer than you expected and eventually you are down to 26,000 in capital.

    If you have a well off child or other relative then the council will pay their rate (letís say £500) happily and let your well off relative pay £300 and you get to stay where you are, where you have made friends, where the staff know you, your home.

    If you donít have any family, or they canít afford to help you, then the council are no longer willing to pay the £500 they would have been?
    Originally posted by onwards&upwards
    There is no compulsion for anyone having to pay the top up, and the sort of numbers you are talking about in this example is unlikely not to be covered by a combination of LA funding and the residence pension income.

    A bigger threat to someone in this position is care home closures.
    • Mojisola
    • By Mojisola 19th May 19, 2:09 PM
    • 31,365 Posts
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    Mojisola
    If you donít have any family, or they canít afford to help you, then the council are no longer willing to pay the £500 they would have been?
    Originally posted by onwards&upwards
    No, the council will still pay up to their limit but that won't cover the home's bill so you will be asked to move - just as if you couldn't afford a hotel bill.

    You would have to argue that the council should pay the whole bill because you are settled there or hope that the council and the home could come to some agreement about splitting the difference - if not, you will have to move to a home which charges what the council will pay.
    • Gavin83
    • By Gavin83 19th May 19, 2:12 PM
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    Gavin83
    Even if top up fees are £300 a week, 26 grand will last 86 weeks which is over a year and a half. For someone who has already been in care long enough to exhaust house sale proceeds and all other savings, that may well be enough if the average stay is only 2 years as was posted above.
    Originally posted by onwards&upwards
    As I said above the council doesn't collect the top up fee, the home does. If they've been a resident for several years and remain in the home as long as it's being paid, regardless of it's source it's unlikely to cause issues. The main issues occur for new residents.

    It's also not just the top up fee. At £26k you'll be paying the council around £50 extra a week towards your care. Add on little extras here and there, along with no income increasing this figure £26k won't last a year and a half, not even close.

    If you donít have any family, or they canít afford to help you, then the council are no longer willing to pay the £500 they would have been?
    Originally posted by onwards&upwards
    They'll pay the £500, just not the £300. If no one can pay that £300 then the care home will evict their tenant.
    • onwards&upwards
    • By onwards&upwards 19th May 19, 2:19 PM
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    onwards&upwards
    As I said above the council doesn't collect the top up fee, the home does. If they've been a resident for several years and remain in the home as long as it's being paid, regardless of it's source it's unlikely to cause issues. The main issues occur for new residents.

    It's also not just the top up fee. At £26k you'll be paying the council around £50 extra a week towards your care. Add on little extras here and there, along with no income increasing this figure £26k won't last a year and a half, not even close.



    They'll pay the £500, just not the £300. If no one can pay that £300 then the care home will evict their tenant.
    Originally posted by Gavin83

    But the resident themselves isnít allowed to pay the £300. If the resident themself has the means to pay the £300 then the council wonít pay the £500, will they?
    • onwards&upwards
    • By onwards&upwards 19th May 19, 2:21 PM
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    onwards&upwards
    No, the council will still pay up to their limit but that won't cover the home's bill so you will be asked to move - just as if you couldn't afford a hotel bill.

    You would have to argue that the council should pay the whole bill because you are settled there or hope that the council and the home could come to some agreement about splitting the difference - if not, you will have to move to a home which charges what the council will pay.
    Originally posted by Mojisola

    I donít understand!

    If the council will pay the £500 and the resident has enough money left to pay the top up, even for a short period, why oh why are they not allowed to?
    • elsien
    • By elsien 19th May 19, 2:23 PM
    • 19,528 Posts
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    elsien
    I donít understand!

    If the council will pay the £500 and the resident has enough money left to pay the top up, even for a short period, why oh why are they not allowed to?
    Originally posted by onwards&upwards
    I'm going to refer you back again to post 53.
    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

    Pedant alert - it's could have, not could of.
    • Mojisola
    • By Mojisola 19th May 19, 2:25 PM
    • 31,365 Posts
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    Mojisola
    I donít understand!

    If the council will pay the £500 and the resident has enough money left to pay the top up, even for a short period, why oh why are they not allowed to?
    Originally posted by onwards&upwards
    Ask your MP - it's the way the law is written.
    • onwards&upwards
    • By onwards&upwards 19th May 19, 2:25 PM
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    onwards&upwards
    I'm going to refer you back again to post 53.
    Originally posted by elsien
    If that was a good reason why I wouldnít still be posting!
    • onwards&upwards
    • By onwards&upwards 19th May 19, 2:26 PM
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    onwards&upwards
    Ask your MP - it's the way the law is written.
    Originally posted by Mojisola

    It seems very unjust to me, I hope someone challenges it one day when they are asked to leave their care home because their money is deemed to be not their own to spend anymore.
    • Gavin83
    • By Gavin83 19th May 19, 2:34 PM
    • 6,063 Posts
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    Gavin83
    I donít understand!

    If the council will pay the £500 and the resident has enough money left to pay the top up, even for a short period, why oh why are they not allowed to?
    Originally posted by onwards&upwards
    I do feel like we're going around in circles a bit here.

    As I've already said if they're an existing resident chances are they will be allowed to pay the top up fee out of their own money, even if that officially isn't the rule. Ultimately they'll likely need to move anyway but it'll be seen as better to let them live there for a while longer than move them sooner.

    The top up is more of an issue for people first entering care rather than existing residents.
    • onwards&upwards
    • By onwards&upwards 19th May 19, 3:17 PM
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    onwards&upwards
    I do feel like we're going around in circles a bit here.

    As I've already said if they're an existing resident chances are they will be allowed to pay the top up fee out of their own money, even if that officially isn't the rule. Ultimately they'll likely need to move anyway but it'll be seen as better to let them live there for a while longer than move them sooner.

    The top up is more of an issue for people first entering care rather than existing residents.
    Originally posted by Gavin83

    But the link posted earlier explicitly states that you are not allowed to pay your own top up fees, so where does your information come from that this rule (law?) is broken regularly?
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 19th May 19, 4:15 PM
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    lisyloo
    But you could take £500 from the taxpayer and have a family member pay your top up of £200?
    Originally posted by onwards&upwards
    If you have below £14k (or theareabouts) in assets yes.
    You have to hand over your mention minus £25 (for clothes, soap etc)
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 19th May 19, 4:20 PM
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    lisyloo
    So hereís a scenario, youíve lived for 4 or 5 years in an £800 a week care home paying for it yourself out of your savings, pension income and the proceeds from selling your home.

    You live longer than you expected and eventually you are down to 26,000 in capital.

    If you have a well off child or other relative then the council will pay their rate (letís say £500) happily and let your well off relative pay £300 and you get to stay where you are, where you have made friends, where the staff know you, your home.

    If you donít have any family, or they canít afford to help you, then the council are no longer willing to pay the £500 they would have been?
    Originally posted by onwards&upwards
    Yes they will pay their £500 but they wonít pay £800, so youíll have to move from an £800 home to a £500 home.

    The is very unsettling for elderly people especially for those with dimensia who need familiar surroundings.
    We have done our best to put our MIL in a place that she will not have to move when her needs increase or her money runs out.
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 19th May 19, 4:26 PM
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    lisyloo
    But the resident themselves isn’t allowed to pay the £300. If the resident themself has the means to pay the £300 then the council won’t pay the £500, will they?
    Originally posted by onwards&upwards
    Below the lower threshold of £14k you are deeemed to have effectively run out of money for all intents and purposes considering your may still have needs for the rest of your life (like spectacles, false teeth) and it may take some time to move you.
    Between the £14k and £23k (not sure exact figures) you will still have to contribute.

    I think you need to bear in mind it may take some time to move people especially if they have nursing/dimensia needs, so they may have to keep paying for a couple of months whilst they wait for a vacancy in practice.

    So the £14k is to give some leeway and leave people with sufficient money for the rest of their lives.
    Your idea that people in homes have no costs is wrong.
    My MIL has very little capacity but if she goes out she need a wheelchair taxi. She has hairdos and manicures (why not I’d she has been robbed of everything).
    She joins in the raffles and sweep stakes etc.

    The rest of someone’s life could be another 15 years, so is £14k too much/too little?

    I don’t know how it’s calculated but I think I have a better idea of the costs and COP costs as a deputy myself (and as someone else said it’s not free of the authorities have to manage someone’s money, I’d hazard a guess and say the charges are higher than a volunteer family member).
    Last edited by lisyloo; 19-05-2019 at 4:32 PM.
    • Sea Shell
    • By Sea Shell 19th May 19, 4:29 PM
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    Sea Shell
    Also, just because a resident may not have family able to pay their top ups, doesn't mean they don't have any heirs, who they'd want to receive a small inheritance.
    " That pound I saved yesterday, is a pound I don't have to earn tomorrow " JOB DONE!!
    This should now read "It's time to start digging up those Squirrelled Nuts"!!!
    • onwards&upwards
    • By onwards&upwards 19th May 19, 5:20 PM
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    onwards&upwards
    Also, just because a resident may not have family able to pay their top ups, doesn't mean they don't have any heirs, who they'd want to receive a small inheritance.
    Originally posted by Sea Shell
    That should be their choice to make though surely?
    • onwards&upwards
    • By onwards&upwards 19th May 19, 5:21 PM
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    onwards&upwards
    Yes they will pay their £500 but they won’t pay £800, so you’ll have to move from an £800 home to a £500 home.
    Originally posted by lisyloo
    Because you aren’t allowed to pay the £300 yourself you have to have somebody willing to pay it for you. How is that not crazy?

    It’s ‘dementia’ btw.
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 20th May 19, 6:57 AM
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    lisyloo
    Because you arenít allowed to pay the £300 yourself you have to have somebody willing to pay it for you. How is that not crazy?

    Itís Ďdementiaí btw.
    Originally posted by onwards&upwards
    No, long term youíve run out of money.
    In practice You can pay it whilst they move you which might take 2-3 months depends on availability and your needs, but basically youíve run out of money.
    In practice itís unlikely thereís a place available immediately (even when people die the family have to move the belongings) so you can probably pay during the looking period.
    Most homes will send someone round to assess you to make sure they can meet your needs (and reject you if they donít want you).
    I think the bit youíre missing is that this takes time so they have to start it before youíve got down to ZERO.

    How does correcting small spelling errors help anything or anyone in the world?
    Please educate me on that? Seriously Iím open to understanding the mindset.
    • onwards&upwards
    • By onwards&upwards 20th May 19, 7:03 AM
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    onwards&upwards

    How does correcting small spelling errors help anything or anyone in the world?
    Please educate me on that? Seriously Iím open to understanding the mindset.
    Originally posted by lisyloo

    Just trying to help you not look silly when youíre saying how well informed you are on these matters. Youíre probably going to have to use it, may as well be able to get it right.
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