Electric cars

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  • almillar
    almillar Posts: 8,621 Forumite
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    I do, thanks. They're all the same.

    You've already said they can have different capacities - if I understand you correctly you think that otherwise they're all the same, like a Duracell AA is the same as a Poundland one? You can't seriously believe that?
    So all cell/batt chemistry is the same.

    Well yes, the chemistry in all current electric cars IS the same. Lithium Ion. It produces roughly 3-4 volts. Tesla, Zoe, Leaf, all the same CHEMISTRY.
    (i) - Cobalt, Manganese, Nickel Manganese, Iron Phosphate ... shall we continue? .... Cobalt Aluminium .... more ? ... Titanate ..... myth busted, even when concentrating on one battery segment, not 'all commercial LiIon cell chemistry is' the same, not even when used in EVs! ...

    Is this in the lab or on the road?
  • zeupater
    zeupater Posts: 5,355 Forumite
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    almillar wrote: »
    ... Is this in the lab or on the road?
    Hi

    On the road & commercially available in volume ...


    I believe that there are at least 3 of those mentioned currently available in EVs from different manufacturers (if anyone can be bothered to check they can!)..... then again there are laptops, power tools, shavers, coin-cells etc too ...

    Just as you can buy different contents in the same standard size tin, standard size batteries/cells can (and do!) have different chemical compositions, but it doesn't stop there either as there are numerous patents covering the construction of the internals even when the chemistry is the same ....

    Some of the potential offerings in the lab are interesting, particularly when looking at power/packing/clustering density, some are further developments on the chemistry front ...

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    B)
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 14,754 Forumite
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    almillar wrote: »
    Well yes, the chemistry in all current electric cars IS the same. Lithium Ion. It produces roughly 3-4 volts. Tesla, Zoe, Leaf, all the same CHEMISTRY.

    If the CHEMISTRY was all the same, then the components would all be the same and in the same ratios. So how come Tesla/Panasonic has a lower level of cobalt?
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 14,754 Forumite
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    The S curve cometh? At a growth rate of approx 50%pa.

    Over 3 Million Electric Cars On The Road — You Driving One Yet?
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • silverwhistle
    silverwhistle Posts: 3,791 Forumite
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    Herzlos wrote: »
    Silverwhistle have you tried searching for charging points near the furthest away grounds? I bet there's something in the same town; a train station or supermarket or something. It might mean parking a bit further away though


    Sorry, thanks, only just noticed this and the other flurry of posts on here.



    Nearer the time I will have a look, but I'm going to wait a couple of years unless the car gets written off! Everything is changing fast, including my ability to play as I get nearer SPA in a few years time, so the issue may not arise unless I go into coaching!
  • silverwhistle
    silverwhistle Posts: 3,791 Forumite
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    Whilst I'm here I thought I'd mention an article I saw in the Italian newspaper La Stampa talking about a report from the European Automobile Manufacturer's Association regarding the unrealistic objectives of the EU with regard to electric cars. I haven't seen any report on this in the UK press (it came out end of June).


    I haven't read the full report, but it points out that market penetration is higher in higher income countries. It mentions the barrier of affordability, but it doesn't seem to address what they, the industry, can do about that. Their points on infrastructure availability and the requisite investment by governments seem reasonable though.


    I haven't got the full link but the report can be found on the acea.be site
  • AdrianC
    AdrianC Posts: 42,189 Forumite
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    Martyn1981 wrote: »
    If the CHEMISTRY was all the same, then the components would all be the same and in the same ratios. So how come Tesla/Panasonic has a lower level of cobalt?
    Thank you for proving my point. The very presence of cobalt and focus on the precise proportions just shows that the basic chemistry is the same - lithium cobalt oxide, rather than the promising-but-not-really-commercial-yet lithium iron phosphate or lithium manganese oxide. And that's before we get into the really weird-and-wonderful world of all the others including lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide, lithium nickel cobalt aluminium oxide, lithium titanate and lithium sulphur <and breathe>...



    Yes, Panasonic (and others) have been tickling the proportions in the cathode - but that doesn't change the basic chemistry, any more than putting a bit or less more lemon into a lemon drizzle cake turns it into a chocolate and walnut cake.


    http://benchmarkminerals.com/panasonic-reduces-teslas-cobalt-consumption-by-60-in-6-years/


    The fact that Panasonic are at the forefront of this tickling shows that EV battery demands are right up at the cutting edge of science, precisely because this is a very big problem - which proves rather than changes the basic point I made somewhere up there, which started all of this esoterica - that Tesla's range is simply down to shoving a metric shedload more generic cells into a battery.


    When the basic chemistry changes, what will the knock-ons to charging circuitry, battery design etc be? <shrug>
    Will they be easily droppable-innable without major redesigns, meaning (like 18650->2170) new-model-only? <shrug>
    Will they mean a big step forward to addressing the issues? Yes, definitely.
    Will we find out soon? Yes, definitely.
    Will that "soon" be months or years? Years, and quite probably onto a second handful of fingers unless somebody makes a seriously Nobel-worthy breakthrough or two very, very soon.
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 14,754 Forumite
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    AdrianC wrote: »
    Thank you for proving my point. The very presence of cobalt and focus on the precise proportions just shows that the basic chemistry is the same - lithium cobalt oxide, rather than the promising-but-not-really-commercial-yet lithium iron phosphate or lithium manganese oxide.

    Basic chemistry .... starting to walk back your claims I see.

    I assume you start and maintain all these nonsense arguments just to disrupt this thread.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 14,754 Forumite
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    Interesting episode on ultra capacitors from Fully Charged. The idea being that they can cope with a few seconds (perhaps 5s) of very high charge or discharge, so able to cope with hard acceleration/braking and complimenting the 'big battery' by doing the harsh part of EV driving.

    Skeleton Ultra Capacitors | Fully Charged
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • Car_54
    Car_54 Posts: 8,209 Forumite
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    edited 5 July 2018 at 10:55AM
    Martyn1981 wrote: »
    I assume you start and maintain all these nonsense arguments just to disrupt this thread.


    Sorry Martyn, I hadn't realised it was your personal thread - I was under the impression that it was an open forum.


    I shall try not to disrupt it with contrary or heretical views in future.
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