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  • FIRST POST
    • kittie
    • By kittie 6th Oct 17, 7:27 AM
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    kittie
    Sourdough and long fermentation specifically
    • #1
    • 6th Oct 17, 7:27 AM
    Sourdough and long fermentation specifically 6th Oct 17 at 7:27 AM
    I have been a long time sourdough baker, I do have periods when I just let the starter go to sleep but it is easy to revive. I am back into a sd phase, it has taken me three days and my starter is ready to climb out of its pot. I feed it with any flour, 00 makes it revive quickly and rye gives it sourness. Over the past few days, I have fed it with four different flours, its a greedy thing and will devour all of them

    I also like long fermentation bread, just slow bread, using the fridge. I always use organic flours for all my breads. This can be made with sd or yeast or both

    These breads cost a lot in the supermarket and when they say sourdough, well it is often a blob of sourdough in with yeast. Sd and yeast do work well together and you do get the good `explosive` rise but generally I am a purist and don`t put yeast or additives in but you can do

    I have the genes and always come back to home baked bread. I do buy sd sometimes but an organic sd 400g spelt loaf was £3.29 last week. I am making a larger sd organic spelt loaf today, it will cost me £1. I have my ways, I use a peel, lame, banneton, cloche and so on but there are ways to get around all of these things
    Last edited by kittie; 06-10-2017 at 7:36 AM.
Page 2
    • Camomile
    • By Camomile 15th Jun 19, 8:47 PM
    • 50 Posts
    • 126 Thanks
    Camomile
    Vanlady, I fried finely chopped onions until they started to go brown in small quantity of olive oil.

    Pizza went fine, I just need to adjust the quantity of dough as made far too much. Chickens enjoyed the rest though. You’re right, it’s completely different to greasy supermarket ones, able to roll out the dough really thin. I need to work on tomato sauce though, seemed to be very tomatoey when I cooked it, on the pizza, it lacked “zing”.

    VJ’s mum, I also stretch and fold.

    Last time I made enough dough for 4 loaves, 2 baked straight away after final proving, 2 left to “think about” in the fridge overnight. It’s also called retarding I heard. Once I left the dough for a few days only because I shove shopping in the fridge and only discovered it when tried to shuffle things aroud. Bread still turned out good.

    My base flour is asda strong bread one as it works out cheapest for me at the moment. Might think about buying sack from Shipton seeing as it’s organic just to try.

    Happy baking
    • thriftwizard
    • By thriftwizard 18th Jun 19, 8:34 PM
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    thriftwizard
    Has anyone tried baking loaves in Pyrex dishes? It occurred to me earlier that it might work out better to do two smaller loaves than one large one, but I was wracking my brains to work out what to bake them in, so I didn't have to bake one after the other; the oven's easily large enough to get two large oblong Pyrex dishes (I have three, as it happens!) in side by side, but not round ones. I could use the lids as bases, as they're flat, and the dishes themselves like cloches. I'm fairly sure I could use some of the smallish oblong baskets I use to display embroidery threads etc. on my market stall as proving baskets, lined with well-floured old linen tea-towels.

    Asking because my large loaf collapsed earlier on being tipped into my large Le Creuset casserole - inherited from my Mum when she stopped cooking altogether - although it had passed the "poke" test for being at the right stage of proving, not under- or over-proved. I think the drop was too much for it... It did bounce back fairly well; the crust was great and it tasted really good, but the crumb, although acceptable, wasn't as fluffy as I'd hoped.

    Two smaller loaves would give me the opportunity to freeze one, and only have to bake once a week; one big one often ends up a bit stale by the weekend. I've frozen & defrosted my chef friend's lovely sourdough successfully so I'm hoping it would work with my own too.
    Angie

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    • thriftwizard
    • By thriftwizard 20th Jun 19, 12:01 PM
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    thriftwizard
    Just baked a batch of savoury overnight-risen rolls; "Khubsa bil Ashab" from Jane Mason's The Book of Buns. Fabulous... although risky; I've eaten 3 already!

    There are some other really good recipes in there, if you should chance upon a copy. All recipes can be made with a sourdough starter - she tells you how in the first chapter - and she also gives amounts for fresh yeast, instant yeast & dried yeast for each recipe. My entire family are now hooked on Norwegian Shilling Buns...
    Last edited by thriftwizard; 20-06-2019 at 12:08 PM.
    Angie

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    • Camomile
    • By Camomile 20th Jun 19, 2:41 PM
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    Camomile
    Thriftwizard, I baked in ceramic creuset casserole dish and clear pyrex one. Cast iron works best though.
    The pyrex dishes let you see through and intervene when needed.I have a round one( which round bread fits only just touching the lid) and oval one ( big enough to put chicken in it). Oval one doesn’t restrict the expansion of loaf so it spreads sideways a little bit.

    I got an cast iron caserole dish to use and must say it’s the best. I think it slows down the baking process a little bit while providing the right environment for the bread to rise. Another advantage is being able to pop an ice cube to create a nice crust at the top which is impossible with ceramic/pyrex dishes.
    • caronc
    • By caronc 20th Jun 19, 7:33 PM
    • 5,466 Posts
    • 33,336 Thanks
    caronc
    Has anyone tried baking loaves in Pyrex dishes? It occurred to me earlier that it might work out better to do two smaller loaves than one large one, but I was wracking my brains to work out what to bake them in, so I didn't have to bake one after the other; the oven's easily large enough to get two large oblong Pyrex dishes (I have three, as it happens!) in side by side, but not round ones. I could use the lids as bases, as they're flat, and the dishes themselves like cloches. I'm fairly sure I could use some of the smallish oblong baskets I use to display embroidery threads etc. on my market stall as proving baskets, lined with well-floured old linen tea-towels.

    Asking because my large loaf collapsed earlier on being tipped into my large Le Creuset casserole - inherited from my Mum when she stopped cooking altogether - although it had passed the "poke" test for being at the right stage of proving, not under- or over-proved. I think the drop was too much for it... It did bounce back fairly well; the crust was great and it tasted really good, but the crumb, although acceptable, wasn't as fluffy as I'd hoped.

    Two smaller loaves would give me the opportunity to freeze one, and only have to bake once a week; one big one often ends up a bit stale by the weekend. I've frozen & defrosted my chef friend's lovely sourdough successfully so I'm hoping it would work with my own too.
    Originally posted by thriftwizard
    I've not used pyrex for sourdough but have for other breads and they've worked well. I'd be wary of pre-heating pyrex though in case it shattered when the dough hit. I've no experience of baking sourdough in an unheated vessel but it may well be just fine. I feel your pain re the dropping the loaf into the casserole, I use a heavy steel pot as cast iron is too heavy for me but it's still tricky. Two things I've tried were popping the loaf out of the proving bowl onto greaseproof paper which makes it easier to lower in and heating a tray & pot and using the tray as a cloche. Both I'd say produce equally good results so worth a try.

    • Apodemus
    • By Apodemus 20th Jun 19, 8:12 PM
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    Apodemus
    Pizza went fine, I just need to adjust the quantity of dough as made far too much. Chickens enjoyed the rest though. You’re right, it’s completely different to greasy supermarket ones, able to roll out the dough really thin. I need to work on tomato sauce though, seemed to be very tomatoey when I cooked it, on the pizza, it lacked “zing”.
    Originally posted by Camomile
    You can never have too much dough! I now make up a (yeasted) pizza dough on a Friday morning before work and bung it in the bottom of the fridge. Even if we don’t end up having pizza on a Friday night, it is there for quick use when needed and I find it is good for at least a week. I incorporate a mix of Mediterranean herbs through the flour when I am preparing the dough, so it is very clearly a savoury dough. With that at the bottom of the fridge there is always a last minute meal available.

    If it doesn’t become pizza, I cut it into strips and dry fry to make bread sticks (a good MSE replacement for crisps with pre-meal drinks or to dunk in a roasted Camembert) or cut into smaller nuggets and fried in oil for angioletti fritti (wonderful if mixed while still warm through a tomato and rocket salad). Last week it was in the fridge for a full week before becoming a Provencal fougasse. The dough relaxes a bit with age and the flavours develop, but I don’t think i’ve ever had to throw it out. However, I am too mean to discard any sourdough starter either and have sourdough pancakes most mornings to keep the starter turning over.
    • thriftwizard
    • By thriftwizard 20th Jun 19, 9:24 PM
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    thriftwizard
    Caronc, I've worked out that I can use my (round) Le Creusets upside down! The handles on the lids fit between the wires of the oven shelves, so I can use the lid (which is near enough flat) as a base & the pot as a cloche. I have three round ones, in different sizes; the two smaller ones would do two small loaves though I may have to remove a shelf to get the depth to use two.

    Apodemus, I love the breadstick idea... all of the ideas, in fact!
    Angie

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    • silverwhistle
    • By silverwhistle 20th Jun 19, 9:49 PM
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    silverwhistle
    Asking because my large loaf collapsed earlier on being tipped into my large Le Creuset casserole .
    Originally posted by thriftwizard

    I used a Le Creuset casserole last time after I saw it mentioned here, but put the dough on the sheet and then shoved the inverted pre-heated casserole dish over the top. Very successful!



    I made a couple of small loaves today after leaving a starter in the fridge overnight as couldn't be bothered to go to the shops. I added about 30 grams of soaked oats to the mix which helps keep it moist and adds to the roughage. One for me and a smaller one for aged parent, but due to entertaining tomorrow I might just go and mix up a quick starter to shove in the fridge, if there's any space from the wine bottles...


    'Night all..
    Last edited by silverwhistle; 20-06-2019 at 9:50 PM. Reason: Snap!
    • Vanlady
    • By Vanlady 20th Jun 19, 10:22 PM
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    • 546 Thanks
    Vanlady
    I haven't baked any SD bread in a pyrex dish. I prove mine in a (gifted, previously an oiled Pyrex bowl ) basket then plonk it onto a baking sheet onto a hot pizza stone, which lives in my oven all the time and bake it under an upturned pyrex bowl using it as a cloche.

    I also never discard any starter, like a lot of books tell you to do, such a waste! I tend to give my starter a generous feed once a week and bake a pure sd loaf with it. Remaining starter I add to yeasted doughs during the week, making flatbreads, pittas, nans etc, and use less yeast, usually about 1/4 to 1/2 teaspoon only. I find the addition of the starter gives the dough a real boost.

    I also like to keep some dough in the fridge.....there is nothing quite like fresh bread, in whatever form it takes, to eat every day

    Ps love reading about everyone's experiences and picking up great tips!
    • Apodemus
    • By Apodemus 21st Jun 19, 4:27 AM
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    Apodemus
    A “+1” from me for keeping the pizza stone in the oven all the time. Since we cook in/on a Rayburn, it means that the pizza stone is always ready to take whatever comes it’s way and the stove hot plate is always ready for sourdough pancakes, flatbreads, chapatis or griddle scones. Just as well we are not on an Atkins diet!
    • PollyWollyDoodle
    • By PollyWollyDoodle 21st Jun 19, 7:46 AM
    • 1,285 Posts
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    PollyWollyDoodle
    I'm also learning such a lot from this! I am in a 'Real Bread Club' - started by someone local after he saw a Bread Club on a programme with Nadiya Hussain. Our numbers have dwindled, and now it's just me and two other ladies and our mentor. We meet about once a month at someone's home, and make bread together. This week he demonstrated a rustic loaf that you start with an autolyse the night before. It only uses 1g of yeast, and I was astonished at how lively it was. We didn't actually bake it this time, we made pitta breads instead.

    I found this website which has lots of recipes and helpful tips on. weekend bakery
    "Inconceivable". "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
    • Grumpysally
    • By Grumpysally 21st Jun 19, 5:21 PM
    • 661 Posts
    • 559 Thanks
    Grumpysally
    Check out Bake with Jack.

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTVR5DSxWPpAVI8TzaaXRqQ/videos


    I've finally cracked sourdough baking following his methods
    • Camomile
    • By Camomile 21st Jun 19, 8:56 PM
    • 50 Posts
    • 126 Thanks
    Camomile
    I'm still learning how to make the sourdough.

    I’ve baked with commercial yeast for years but they work a bit different to wild yeast in starter culture.

    No expensive equipment needed, I prove my loaves in wicker basket with cloth, oiled and sprinkled with oats/rice flour pyrex bowl and 2 big pyrex measuring jugs. Seems to be working.

    I could never understand the levain thing.I keep small amount of starter in the fridge, take it out of the fridge and feed generously in the evening,leave on the worktop, by the morning it’s ready to use. I take most of it out and jar goes back to the fridge.

    I know that more starter means more rapid fermentation so I’m able to work my loaves a bit faster.I mixed the dough this morning, shaped at noon at baked in the afternoon.

    Apodemus, thanks very much for breadstick suggestion.
    I also don’t have so called “discard”because I hate any waste and can’t see much sense in it.
    • thriftwizard
    • By thriftwizard 21st Jun 19, 9:59 PM
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    thriftwizard
    I'm also still learning. I do do a levain now; at the moment I'm baking once a week. I take the starter out of the fridge the day before & refresh in the morning, then in the evening I make a very sloppy dough (1 cup flour, 1 cup water) and add half of my starter. In the morning that's lovely & bubbly, and I'll add in 2 cups of flour and 1 more of water, leave for half an hour or so, then gently work in the salt. I do some stretching, then shape it, pop it into a mould (currently a metal mixing bowl, but I found a real banneton being sold as a "basket" for £2 on the market today) & it's ready to bake late afternoon. But I'm still working on getting a fluffy crumb; it's not bad but it's not brilliant. A lot better than when I wasn't doing a levain, though.

    Hoping to pick up some more tips from my chef friend tomorrow!
    Angie

    GC July 19 - £419.37/£400 - eeek!
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    • thriftwizard
    • By thriftwizard 22nd Jun 19, 9:31 PM
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    thriftwizard
    Well, it appears that the levain, done as I was doing it, is actually directly equivalent to a second refresh! And if I get my proportions right - a 1:3:3 refresh, leave for 6 hours, then using 20% of the flour weight of starter for the dough, & rise for 6 hours, all at a steady warm temperature, I shouldn't need to do the leaven. So basically there was too much of a very lively starter in that last loaf for the length of time that I'd let it rise.

    I suspect that some of my problems have also been down to not being able to keep the temperature steady enough. There's a lovely warm spot above my floor-mounted combi boiler, which has a small integral storage tank. It's warm enough to dry chillis, dry out corncob husks to be fire-starters, & raise yeasted dough, and I even once kept a live egg viable up there for a couple of days after a fox attack, long enough to pop back under another broody hen; it did hatch. But it's near the door to the garden, and the temperature will plummet when the door's left open, which wouldn't have harmed the egg - broody chickens often leave their eggs for half an hour or so a day, and continually turn them so some move into the warmest spots and others to the cooler bits on the edge of the nest - but probably didn't do my dough any good! And sometimes it's a bit hotter, which will have changed the balance of the micro-organisms in there.

    Pondering what to do about it... can't keep it all on top of the BT box, which is often used for raising dough when there's no room above the boiler!
    Angie

    GC July 19 - £419.37/£400 - eeek!
    2019 Fashion on the Ration Challenge: 39 coupons left out of 66

    (Money's just a substitute for time & talent...)
    • Vanlady
    • By Vanlady 23rd Jun 19, 2:48 PM
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    Vanlady
    Afternoon everyone,
    Grumpysally, I'm also a bake with jack fan.
    Pollywollydoodle, thanks for sharing your weekend bakery website - some lovely ideas on there.
    Thrift wizard, what's 1.3.3? It all sounds a bit technical.....
    So, Friday I gave my starter a good feed. I prefer to use wholemeal flour as I just lurve the spongy starter it produces rather than a gloopy one that I find white flour gives. Although rye is I think the best, I don't have any in at the moment.
    I've just made my dough and it is now sitting in its banneton on the kitchen counter, and I'll put it in the fridge in an hour or so and take it out tomorrow morning ready to bake late afternoon when I plan to have a full load going in my oven.

    I've found this formula works best for me - 3 cups of strong flour. Today I've used 50/50 white and wholemeal, but recently I've subed a bit with chapatti flour if I need to use some up. 1 and a bit cups of water. And a good dollop of starter, probably about half to 3/4 cup full. Olive oil. About 1/2 to 1 teaspoon of salt. Wheatgerm. Mustard seeds - I use these as I buy big bags of them from the continental shop; half the price of poppy seeds, and don't really taste of mustard and give a nice 'pop ' in the bread.
    I use this formula when we're away glamping as i dont have any scales with me. After a bit of autolyse ( we love that word don't we ) I kneaded/stretched and folded. This is the bit I LOVE as it gives me a good idea of consistency and water/flour ratio.......I aim to work on a 70% hydration.....way hey!! New term to work with chums!!! I find this gives the best result for any bread and doesn't produce a dry loaf.
    Even though I've been making sourdough bread for about a year; I still feel I'm learning too. It took me at least 6 to 8 months just to get the hang of successfully feeding the starter, and I honestly nearly gave up a few times. But I'm SO glad I didn't. There is nothing more satisfying than making fantastic natural bread from so few ingredients is there

    Ps you're so right Apodemus - thank goodness were not on the aitkins diet!.
    • thriftwizard
    • By thriftwizard 23rd Jun 19, 3:45 PM
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    thriftwizard
    1:3:3 is one part starter to three parts flour & three parts water. It's the ramping-up stage, giving your microbes a moment of "yippee lads, all we could ever want, let's get stuck in!" so they are at peak activity when you want them to raise your dough. I think!

    I've probably also been under-hydrating & over-kneading. Off the top of my head, the last few loaves were around the 60% mark - not enough. But the amazing thing is, they were still loads better than supermarket "bread" in both taste & texture!
    Angie

    GC July 19 - £419.37/£400 - eeek!
    2019 Fashion on the Ration Challenge: 39 coupons left out of 66

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    • Camomile
    • By Camomile 23rd Jun 19, 8:53 PM
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    Camomile
    I must say that I don’t measure the starter feed,I just chuck in enough lukewarm water and flour to make a thin paste. I give it quite a bit to munch so it would be enough to be processed overnight, then quick refresh in the morning if it went down.

    Thriftwizard, whatever you make home will be always better than shop bought stuff.
    • thriftmonster
    • By thriftmonster 24th Jun 19, 8:52 AM
    • 1,653 Posts
    • 7,997 Thanks
    thriftmonster
    Just baked a batch of savoury overnight-risen rolls; "Khubsa bil Ashab" from Jane Mason's The Book of Buns. Fabulous... although risky; I've eaten 3 already!

    There are some other really good recipes in there, if you should chance upon a copy. All recipes can be made with a sourdough starter - she tells you how in the first chapter - and she also gives amounts for fresh yeast, instant yeast & dried yeast for each recipe. My entire family are now hooked on Norwegian Shilling Buns...
    Originally posted by thriftwizard
    I have just ordered this from Ama**n as a used copy as my book purchase of the month (have had to limit myself to one a month )
    Looking forward to trying all these on your recommendation.
    “the princess jumped from the tower & she learned that she could fly all along. she never needed those wings.”
    Amanda Lovelace, The Princess Saves Herself in this One
    • thriftwizard
    • By thriftwizard 24th Jun 19, 7:53 PM
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    thriftwizard
    I have just ordered this from Ama**n as a used copy as my book purchase of the month (have had to limit myself to one a month )
    Looking forward to trying all these on your recommendation.
    Hope you like it, thriftmonster! We've loved the Norwegian Skillingsboller and the Khubsa Bil Ashad particularly so far - I suspect I'll be making the latter on a weekly basis for lunchboxes - but there are plenty more to try.
    Angie

    GC July 19 - £419.37/£400 - eeek!
    2019 Fashion on the Ration Challenge: 39 coupons left out of 66

    (Money's just a substitute for time & talent...)
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