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  • FIRST POST
    • JordanB96
    • By JordanB96 21st May 19, 9:13 PM
    • 9Posts
    • 6Thanks
    JordanB96
    Insurance cancelled due to faulty blackbox (RESOLVED)
    • #1
    • 21st May 19, 9:13 PM
    Insurance cancelled due to faulty blackbox (RESOLVED) 21st May 19 at 9:13 PM
    Hi guys

    So im after a little advice, my girlfriend had her insurance policy cancelled due to speeding on 3 occasions. We have checked the app and it shows where the speeding started and ended. Now we have also checked other journeys to see if the gps is accurate. The gps states the car starts its journey about a 100m away feom our actual house on every occasion. The road she was so say caught speeding on goes from 30 to 60. She was recorded so say at 54 in a 30 but we know for a fact its not correct. The gps being 100M out everytime makes sense as its recorded her doing 54mph when infact she was 100m further down the road in the 60mph limit and not the 30mph limit. We have contacted general accident via the email provided and its been 7 days with no repsonse other than a cancellation letter. We can prove the gps is out and its been cancelled through no fault of her own we just cant get hold of anyone at general accident. After explaining everything does anyone know what rights we have and where we stand, can we appeal and who too? Thanks for any replys and advice
    Last edited by JordanB96; 23-06-2019 at 8:12 PM. Reason: Resolved
Page 2
    • prowla
    • By prowla 25th May 19, 9:16 AM
    • 10,437 Posts
    • 8,944 Thanks
    prowla
    My new car has speed limit sensors and even shows the speed limit on the windscreen.


    However, there have been a number of times where it has missed signage.


    Based on that, I would be reluctant to trust the technology for any official/insurance purposes.
    • nick74
    • By nick74 25th May 19, 9:42 AM
    • 290 Posts
    • 200 Thanks
    nick74
    My new car has speed limit sensors and even shows the speed limit on the windscreen.


    However, there have been a number of times where it has missed signage.


    Based on that, I would be reluctant to trust the technology for any official/insurance purposes.
    Originally posted by prowla
    The type of setup your car has will actually read the speed limit signs as you pass them, whereas insurance black boxes use a combination of GPS and mapped speed limit data, so quite different technology.

    However, my concern is that if they are using the same speed limit data as satnavs, it is sometimes seriously inaccurate.
    • kelevraz
    • By kelevraz 26th May 19, 10:45 AM
    • 189 Posts
    • 53 Thanks
    kelevraz
    Would just like to point out that if you're going 31MPH in a 30, you're still technically speeding.

    I imagine you'd have a real uphill battle to effectively prove your blackbox was so out of whack that it recorded you as 'speeding' when you were at or under the limit
    • Nasqueron
    • By Nasqueron 26th May 19, 10:35 PM
    • 7,603 Posts
    • 4,835 Thanks
    Nasqueron
    Exactly my point, 2 seconds after the 30mph, is only about 26 metres (at 30mph) but if the gps is out by 100m, it could show me as being 74 metres in the 30mph zone and I could well be doing close to 40mph at that time. Where did you deduce acceleration before reaching the 50mph from my statement?
    Originally posted by lopsyfa
    I was talking about the OP scenario most likely accelerating before the speed sign

    Sat navs / GPS black boxes are not inaccurate by 100m, you couldn't run a reliable service being that far out as it couldn't even tell which side of the motorway you were on let alone on a road running parallel with a different speed limit.

    As I said in my post, even if it was that far out, why was it not reported to the insurer that it was faulty rather than continuing to drive. If it needed a minute to find more satellites then don't drive off as soon as you turn on the car. Mine shows the number available, typically 2-5 on startup and usually 10 or so after a couple of minutes meaning high levels of accuracy
    • mojo1
    • By mojo1 27th May 19, 2:11 PM
    • 919 Posts
    • 328 Thanks
    mojo1
    It's not uncommon for a GPS to be out by 100m. There are three primary factors that can cause it.

    1. Poor signal. Especially when signal drops in and out, or when the GPS receiver has been off for a while and not updated its internal database. The satellites send out data on their orbits but can take several minutes for the receiver to fully update, or even longer. Old data is increasingly inaccurate.

    Phones download the data over the internet so don't usually have this problem.

    2. GPS uses a model of the world that assumes it to be an ovoid, so not quite a sphere but a bit wider around the middle. In some parts of the world that model isn't all that close to reality and adds error to the position shown.

    3. Weather affects the GPS signal and can cause position drift.

    Sat navs try to hide all this using tricks like making the on-screen car stick to the nearest road, on the assumption that you probably didn't drive off into the nearest field.

    Unfortunately it means these kind of black box devices are pretty unreliable.
    • lopsyfa
    • By lopsyfa 28th May 19, 10:27 AM
    • 209 Posts
    • 123 Thanks
    lopsyfa
    Would just like to point out that if you're going 31MPH in a 30, you're still technically speeding.

    I imagine you'd have a real uphill battle to effectively prove your blackbox was so out of whack that it recorded you as 'speeding' when you were at or under the limit
    Originally posted by kelevraz
    Never argue that is not speeding but what I take objection to is the other poster assumption that if you have a system to alert you that you are slightly above the speed limit, then you must be speeding everywhere and driving without due attention. It is like saying if you use a lane assist system in a car, you must be driving randomly across the road. I didn't want to take on that poster in other not to derail this thread.
    • lopsyfa
    • By lopsyfa 28th May 19, 10:39 AM
    • 209 Posts
    • 123 Thanks
    lopsyfa
    I was talking about the OP scenario most likely accelerating before the speed sign

    Sat navs / GPS black boxes are not inaccurate by 100m, you couldn't run a reliable service being that far out as it couldn't even tell which side of the motorway you were on let alone on a road running parallel with a different speed limit.

    As I said in my post, even if it was that far out, why was it not reported to the insurer that it was faulty rather than continuing to drive. If it needed a minute to find more satellites then don't drive off as soon as you turn on the car. Mine shows the number available, typically 2-5 on startup and usually 10 or so after a couple of minutes meaning high levels of accuracy
    Originally posted by Nasqueron
    The OP may not be acceleration before the sign.

    There are several methods of mapping a car to the side of the motorway or road. One of this method is comparing the location of the user at more than one data points and then using the direction of the road. Once the EU system (Galileo) is ready, the accuracy should be suitable for reliable use for the black box insurance.

    I agree the OP need to report back to the insurance.
    • Nasqueron
    • By Nasqueron 28th May 19, 7:45 PM
    • 7,603 Posts
    • 4,835 Thanks
    Nasqueron
    It's not uncommon for a GPS to be out by 100m. There are three primary factors that can cause it.

    1. Poor signal. Especially when signal drops in and out, or when the GPS receiver has been off for a while and not updated its internal database. The satellites send out data on their orbits but can take several minutes for the receiver to fully update, or even longer. Old data is increasingly inaccurate.

    Phones download the data over the internet so don't usually have this problem.

    2. GPS uses a model of the world that assumes it to be an ovoid, so not quite a sphere but a bit wider around the middle. In some parts of the world that model isn't all that close to reality and adds error to the position shown.

    3. Weather affects the GPS signal and can cause position drift.

    Sat navs try to hide all this using tricks like making the on-screen car stick to the nearest road, on the assumption that you probably didn't drive off into the nearest field.

    Unfortunately it means these kind of black box devices are pretty unreliable.
    Originally posted by mojo1

    Modern Sat Navs are accurate to 3-10m, if the accuracy was 100m you couldn't use it reliably to do anything. OP's partner was speeding
    • Uxb1
    • By Uxb1 29th May 19, 7:09 AM
    • 214 Posts
    • 297 Thanks
    Uxb1
    OK so to repeat by earlier post on page 1 perhaps you can explain why on occasions when going from a say 30 limit to a 40 limit my satnav is still telling me the speed limit is still 30 some 100 yards or so past the point of speed limit change?
    As a result it beeps at me to tell me I'm exceeding the speed limit as I've passed the 40 sign, am now accelerating - and no I'm not exceeding it.

    Either
    1 The sat nav thinks I'm in a different position to the one I'm actually at
    or
    2. The sat nav derived position of the location of the speed limit change is incorrect in the database.

    I think the difference between the OS mapping on their old datum of OSGB-36 compared to the idealized ellipse mentioned above of WGS84 used for satnav's is only about 35 yards in the UK.
    • wongataa
    • By wongataa 29th May 19, 9:03 PM
    • 1,726 Posts
    • 1,138 Thanks
    wongataa
    OK so to repeat by earlier post on page 1 perhaps you can explain why on occasions when going from a say 30 limit to a 40 limit my satnav is still telling me the speed limit is still 30 some 100 yards or so past the point of speed limit change?
    As a result it beeps at me to tell me I'm exceeding the speed limit as I've passed the 40 sign, am now accelerating - and no I'm not exceeding it.

    Either
    1 The sat nav thinks I'm in a different position to the one I'm actually at
    or
    2. The sat nav derived position of the location of the speed limit change is incorrect in the database.
    Originally posted by Uxb1
    It will be option 2. The speed limit data is part of the map data. If the speed limit shown on the sat nav does not match reality then it is going to be incorrect map data. This is obvious when the local council changes the speed limit on a road but your sat nav still shows the old speed limit. This incorrect speed limit data can persist through many map updates.
    • daveyjp
    • By daveyjp 30th May 19, 6:00 AM
    • 8,138 Posts
    • 6,728 Thanks
    daveyjp
    You can't trust satnav speed limit data. Despite three updates mine still has long sections of the M1 as 50 limit.

    The roadworks this applied to finished a couple of years ago.
    • JordanB96
    • By JordanB96 22nd Jun 19, 6:45 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    JordanB96
    Sorry for not replying to anyone ive only just seen all these comments. Thank you to everyone who has commented. The insurance company has admitted fault with the box due to the evidence i provided, the insurance was still canceled but i never had to pay any fees. Plus side to all the hassle was i now have insurance with out a box and its 200 cheaper. Once again thanks for all the comments.
    • MovingForwards
    • By MovingForwards 22nd Jun 19, 7:51 PM
    • 1,530 Posts
    • 1,806 Thanks
    MovingForwards
    Sorry for not replying to anyone ive only just seen all these comments. Thank you to everyone who has commented. The insurance company has admitted fault with the box due to the evidence i provided, the insurance was still canceled but i never had to pay any fees. Plus side to all the hassle was i now have insurance with out a box and its 200 cheaper. Once again thanks for all the comments.
    Originally posted by JordanB96
    Was that declaring the cancellation?
    If so, well done as my brother ended up paying over 4k per year due to his getting cancelled.
    • DCFC79
    • By DCFC79 22nd Jun 19, 8:32 PM
    • 34,560 Posts
    • 21,866 Thanks
    DCFC79
    Why not edit the thread title to say 'resolved' or similar.
    • Jumblebumble
    • By Jumblebumble 24th Jun 19, 10:58 AM
    • 254 Posts
    • 93 Thanks
    Jumblebumble
    Modern Sat Navs are accurate to 3-10m, if the accuracy was 100m you couldn't use it reliably to do anything. OP's partner was speeding
    Originally posted by Nasqueron
    As I understand it the insurance company have admitted the box was faulty
    Perhaps you would like to apologise to the OP for making up facts
    • mojo1
    • By mojo1 24th Jun 19, 3:28 PM
    • 919 Posts
    • 328 Thanks
    mojo1
    Modern Sat Navs are accurate to 3-10m, if the accuracy was 100m you couldn't use it reliably to do anything. OP's partner was speeding
    Originally posted by Nasqueron
    "Modern" or otherwise that's not how GPS works. The insurance company has now admitted the fault so perhaps you would like to withdraw your accusation and apologise.
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