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  • FIRST POST
    • JordanB96
    • By JordanB96 21st May 19, 9:13 PM
    • 11Posts
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    JordanB96
    Insurance cancelled due to faulty blackbox (RESOLVED)
    • #1
    • 21st May 19, 9:13 PM
    Insurance cancelled due to faulty blackbox (RESOLVED) 21st May 19 at 9:13 PM
    Hi guys

    So im after a little advice, my girlfriend had her insurance policy cancelled due to speeding on 3 occasions. We have checked the app and it shows where the speeding started and ended. Now we have also checked other journeys to see if the gps is accurate. The gps states the car starts its journey about a 100m away feom our actual house on every occasion. The road she was so say caught speeding on goes from 30 to 60. She was recorded so say at 54 in a 30 but we know for a fact its not correct. The gps being 100M out everytime makes sense as its recorded her doing 54mph when infact she was 100m further down the road in the 60mph limit and not the 30mph limit. We have contacted general accident via the email provided and its been 7 days with no repsonse other than a cancellation letter. We can prove the gps is out and its been cancelled through no fault of her own we just cant get hold of anyone at general accident. After explaining everything does anyone know what rights we have and where we stand, can we appeal and who too? Thanks for any replys and advice
    Last edited by JordanB96; 23-06-2019 at 8:12 PM. Reason: Resolved
Page 1
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 21st May 19, 9:44 PM
    • 39,842 Posts
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    Quentin
    • #2
    • 21st May 19, 9:44 PM
    • #2
    • 21st May 19, 9:44 PM
    Whenever you are not happy with your insurance company the route to go down is a complaint in line with their complaints procedure

    Then if you are not happy with the reply or they ignore you for 8 weeks you can escalate to the FOS for their adjudication at no cost to you
    • jonesMUFCforever
    • By jonesMUFCforever 22nd May 19, 5:27 PM
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    jonesMUFCforever
    • #3
    • 22nd May 19, 5:27 PM
    • #3
    • 22nd May 19, 5:27 PM
    How can you prove the GPS is wrong?
    What goes around - comes around
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    • alfie1950
    • By alfie1950 22nd May 19, 5:39 PM
    • 110 Posts
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    alfie1950
    • #4
    • 22nd May 19, 5:39 PM
    • #4
    • 22nd May 19, 5:39 PM
    If you've ever genuinely looked into speeding you will find that GPS is more accurate than the speedometer in the car.....stop clutching at straws !
    • molerat
    • By molerat 22nd May 19, 6:09 PM
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    molerat
    • #5
    • 22nd May 19, 6:09 PM
    • #5
    • 22nd May 19, 6:09 PM
    If you've ever genuinely looked into speeding you will find that GPS is more accurate than the speedometer in the car.....stop clutching at straws !
    Originally posted by alfie1950
    OP is not complaining about the accuracy of the speed but the accuracy of the location.


    OP, on what dates were these over speeds ?
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    • Uxb1
    • By Uxb1 22nd May 19, 6:11 PM
    • 214 Posts
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    Uxb1
    • #6
    • 22nd May 19, 6:11 PM
    • #6
    • 22nd May 19, 6:11 PM
    The OP are saying the position of where the GPS data thinks the speed limit starts and ends is incorrect - not the value of the GPS speed they were doing.
    Yes - the GPS calculated speed is more accurate/true than the car's speedo says and if the car was on a straight level road then the GPS would be very close to the true speed.
    But I've often found on in-car sat navs that they bleep at me to say I'm exceeding the speed limit when actually I past the change of speed limit signs to a higher one a 100 yards plus back - so I'm not.
    • marlot
    • By marlot 22nd May 19, 6:42 PM
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    marlot
    • #7
    • 22nd May 19, 6:42 PM
    • #7
    • 22nd May 19, 6:42 PM
    I've had incar satnavs get confused on location. I've also had times where my phone is confused.


    Plus on startup, the location can be wrong whilst the unit is fixing on to satellites.


    So yes, they can get the location wrong. I can easily imagine it showing a spike when it suddenly relocates.
    Last edited by marlot; 22-05-2019 at 6:46 PM.
    • lopsyfa
    • By lopsyfa 23rd May 19, 9:03 AM
    • 210 Posts
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    lopsyfa
    • #8
    • 23rd May 19, 9:03 AM
    • #8
    • 23rd May 19, 9:03 AM
    It is time people stop taking out this black box insurance because I have now seen many cases of GPS error or faulty black box resulting in car insurance being cancelled. In the end, the lower cost of black box is not worth it compared to the effect of cancelled insurance.

    Until the black box technology matured and insurance companies start applying more common sense, the consumers should simply stop apply for such cover.

    My experience is similar to the poster above, I have waze set to alert me when I am about 5% above the speed limit and the alert usually comes when I am about 2 seconds into a new speed limit. I can imagine if I have a black box, my insurance could have been cancelled. These people need to build some tolerance into the system.

    This will not help the OP but raising a complaint with the company and pursuing it to the Ombudsman will help. Keep a record of the journeys where the black box has reported speeding. If you can prove the location is +/100m to a change of speed limit, you will little change to win the appeal.

    I will however advice to cancel the black box insurance if you are successful in overturning the cancellation because you may not be too lucky next time. Better to pay a little more and get insurance without telematics.
    • jonesMUFCforever
    • By jonesMUFCforever 23rd May 19, 4:43 PM
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    jonesMUFCforever
    • #9
    • 23rd May 19, 4:43 PM
    • #9
    • 23rd May 19, 4:43 PM
    It is time people stop taking out this black box insurance because I have now seen many cases of GPS error or faulty black box resulting in car insurance being cancelled. In the end, the lower cost of black box is not worth it compared to the effect of cancelled insurance.

    Until the black box technology matured and insurance companies start applying more common sense, the consumers should simply stop apply for such cover.

    My experience is similar to the poster above, I have waze set to alert me when I am about 5% above the speed limit and the alert usually comes when I am about 2 seconds into a new speed limit. I can imagine if I have a black box, my insurance could have been cancelled. These people need to build some tolerance into the system.

    This will not help the OP but raising a complaint with the company and pursuing it to the Ombudsman will help. Keep a record of the journeys where the black box has reported speeding. If you can prove the location is +/100m to a change of speed limit, you will little change to win the appeal.

    I will however advice to cancel the black box insurance if you are successful in overturning the cancellation because you may not be too lucky next time. Better to pay a little more and get insurance without telematics.
    Originally posted by lopsyfa
    Why do you need an alert to be told that you are speeding?
    Do you not take any notice of the road signs??
    What goes around - comes around
    give lots and you will always receive lots
    • rudekid48
    • By rudekid48 23rd May 19, 5:19 PM
    • 2,142 Posts
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    rudekid48
    OP, you can't draw the conclusion that the GPS is always 100m out because of the start of journeys. All GPS devices take a short time to connect to satellites and get a location fix. The time it takes will vary by location, weather conditions, where the device is within the vehicle and several other factors. Your argument would carry more weight if it was consistently 100m out at the END of a journey. Also, unless you are the US military, GPS is never 100% accurate but when performing well should be accurate to 3-10 metres.

    The 5% speed example given by another poster is not relevant to your case. I'm not aware of any black-box insurer who would cancel cover for 3 'strikes' of 5% over - it is usually a pretty high threshold to get cancelled - most I've seen range from 30%-50% over the limit for a 'strike' or 100% over or 100mph for instant 7 day notice of cancellation.

    54 in a 30 is not a minor infringement - it's the difference between life & death for an unfortunate pedestrian.
    All matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves.
    • lopsyfa
    • By lopsyfa 23rd May 19, 7:08 PM
    • 210 Posts
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    lopsyfa
    Why do you need an alert to be told that you are speeding?
    Do you not take any notice of the road signs??
    Originally posted by jonesMUFCforever
    I am sorry what?

    I don’t want to go into any unnecessary debate with you that does not help the OP.
    Last edited by lopsyfa; 23-05-2019 at 7:18 PM.
    • lopsyfa
    • By lopsyfa 23rd May 19, 7:12 PM
    • 210 Posts
    • 125 Thanks
    lopsyfa
    OP, you can't draw the conclusion that the GPS is always 100m out because of the start of journeys. All GPS devices take a short time to connect to satellites and get a location fix. The time it takes will vary by location, weather conditions, where the device is within the vehicle and several other factors. Your argument would carry more weight if it was consistently 100m out at the END of a journey. Also, unless you are the US military, GPS is never 100% accurate but when performing well should be accurate to 3-10 metres.

    The 5% speed example given by another poster is not relevant to your case. I'm not aware of any black-box insurer who would cancel cover for 3 'strikes' of 5% over - it is usually a pretty high threshold to get cancelled - most I've seen range from 30%-50% over the limit for a 'strike' or 100% over or 100mph for instant 7 day notice of cancellation.

    54 in a 30 is not a minor infringement - it's the difference between life & death for an unfortunate pedestrian.
    Originally posted by rudekid48
    The 5% was quoted to show what happened when there is a speed limit change ie a change from 30mph to 50mph, I still get the alert for the 30mph when I am 2 seconds inside the 50mph limit. Hope that clarifies my statement.
    Last edited by lopsyfa; 23-05-2019 at 7:16 PM.
    • jonesMUFCforever
    • By jonesMUFCforever 24th May 19, 12:00 AM
    • 25,910 Posts
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    jonesMUFCforever
    I am sorry what?

    I donít want to go into any unnecessary debate with you that does not help the OP.
    Originally posted by lopsyfa
    I will repeat then - why do you need to be alerted by an electronic device that you are speeding when all you should be doing is keeping your eyes on the road and taking note of the appropriate speed signs?
    IMO the OP is clutching at straws and will find it difficult to find insurance now with a cancelled policy on their record.
    What goes around - comes around
    give lots and you will always receive lots
    • Nasqueron
    • By Nasqueron 24th May 19, 8:39 AM
    • 7,603 Posts
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    Nasqueron
    The 5% was quoted to show what happened when there is a speed limit change ie a change from 30mph to 50mph, I still get the alert for the 30mph when I am 2 seconds inside the 50mph limit. Hope that clarifies my statement.
    Originally posted by lopsyfa

    If you are going at 50mph, in 2 seconds you do 44.7m, obviously you would be accelerating from 30 to 50 AFTER you passed the sign (because 50 mph sign is where the limit starts, accelerating above 30mph before the sign is speeding) so there would be no risk. If you started accelerating before the sign then you would be at risk of running foul on the black box GPS as it correctly showing you breaking the law.


    OP is trying to claim that they drove past the 60 limit, then accelerated up to 54 and the GPS pinged them as still being in the 30 limit - if it was 100m out it would be so inaccurate as to be pointless, there are examples of roads (e.g. the A38 towards Burton) where you are on a 50/60 bit but there are side roads that are 30 running parallel that are 2-3m away. What almost certainly really happened is that they are accelerating before the sign so they are doing 54 when they pass the sign i.e. speeding


    Moreover, if they knew, from the first warning, that the GPS is so inaccurate, why did they a) not report it to the insurer and b) cross the 60 limit sign and then carefully accelerate up to 60 ensuring they were not going to get pinged?
    • lopsyfa
    • By lopsyfa 24th May 19, 11:35 AM
    • 210 Posts
    • 125 Thanks
    lopsyfa
    I will repeat then - why do you need to be alerted by an electronic device that you are speeding when all you should be doing is keeping your eyes on the road and taking note of the appropriate speed signs?
    IMO the OP is clutching at straws and will find it difficult to find insurance now with a cancelled policy on their record.
    Originally posted by jonesMUFCforever
    You can repeat as many times as you like but I wonít justify to you why I can sometimes drift to 21mph in a 20mph speed limit. You should just give me points and fine.

    Also that is not the topic of this post.
    Last edited by lopsyfa; 24-05-2019 at 11:50 AM.
    • lopsyfa
    • By lopsyfa 24th May 19, 11:46 AM
    • 210 Posts
    • 125 Thanks
    lopsyfa
    If you are going at 50mph, in 2 seconds you do 44.7m, obviously you would be accelerating from 30 to 50 AFTER you passed the sign (because 50 mph sign is where the limit starts, accelerating above 30mph before the sign is speeding) so there would be no risk. If you started accelerating before the sign then you would be at risk of running foul on the black box GPS as it correctly showing you breaking the law.

    Originally posted by Nasqueron
    Exactly my point, 2 seconds after the 30mph, is only about 26 metres (at 30mph) but if the gps is out by 100m, it could show me as being 74 metres in the 30mph zone and I could well be doing close to 40mph at that time. Where did you deduce acceleration before reaching the 50mph from my statement?
    Last edited by lopsyfa; 24-05-2019 at 2:58 PM.
    • Yellow_mango
    • By Yellow_mango 24th May 19, 12:01 PM
    • 286 Posts
    • 481 Thanks
    Yellow_mango
    This feels like a GCSE physics question.

    What acceleration would be required to go from 30mph to 54mph in 100m?

    Is such acceleration achievable in a standard road vehicle?
    • lopsyfa
    • By lopsyfa 24th May 19, 3:01 PM
    • 210 Posts
    • 125 Thanks
    lopsyfa
    This feels like a GCSE physics question.

    What acceleration would be required to go from 30mph to 54mph in 100m?

    Is such acceleration achievable in a standard road vehicle?
    Originally posted by Yellow_mango
    Indeed (v^2=u^2+2as) - I'll leave you to do the Maths but remember 39 is already 30% above 30 speed limit. Therefore, not much acceleration is required to get to a speed at which you may get in trouble with the insurance company.
    • nick74
    • By nick74 25th May 19, 8:48 AM
    • 290 Posts
    • 200 Thanks
    nick74
    Do the black box providers get their speed limit data from the same source as satnav manufacturers? Just curious as I occasionally drive on a section of national speed limit A-road which most satnavs insist has a 40 MPH limit. It doesn't have a 40 limit and as far as I know never has done, and it made me wonder if everyone who drives down there at 41-60 MPH with a black box is being erroneously flagged for speeding?
    • prowla
    • By prowla 25th May 19, 9:12 AM
    • 10,446 Posts
    • 8,957 Thanks
    prowla
    I will repeat then - why do you need to be alerted by an electronic device that you are speeding when all you should be doing is keeping your eyes on the road and taking note of the appropriate speed signs?
    IMO the OP is clutching at straws and will find it difficult to find insurance now with a cancelled policy on their record.
    Originally posted by jonesMUFCforever
    The OP is saying that they were driving at the correct speed, according to the road signage, but the black box has a fault whereby it is 100m out in the location of the signage.
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