Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • graffias
    • By graffias 22nd Nov 17, 7:59 PM
    • 36Posts
    • 25Thanks
    graffias
    Transfer Pension To Bitcoin
    • #1
    • 22nd Nov 17, 7:59 PM
    Transfer Pension To Bitcoin 22nd Nov 17 at 7:59 PM
    Is there ANY way to withdraw my whole defined contribution pension plan (from a company I used to work for many years back) - it is worth about £24,000 in long term equities (split between UK, Global, and Emerging Market) - and put the whole lot into Bitcoin? I am age 51 and virtually certain that Bitcoin will by end of 2019 be worth over £100,000 per coin. With the central bank printing presses running overtime as at no time in history, and them buying up stocks to inflate prices to a massive bubble again unlike any ever seen before - it has to be INSANITY to have £24,000 invested in the stock market for the next few years whilst Bitcoin is on the cusp of becoming a global monetary store of value and currency. By contrast the pensions bubble is going to completely explode.

    I don't want to lose out on £400,000GBP that this will be worth in 2019 - so is there any way to save this money - how do I get the money out of the pension scheme, where I know its going to be worth virtually nothing by the time I retire if I don't take action ?

    Any advice from pension experts much appreciated - thank you.
Page 2
    • pafpcg
    • By pafpcg 23rd Nov 17, 5:44 PM
    • 216 Posts
    • 192 Thanks
    pafpcg
    Why bother with the hassle of trying to cash-in your pension?

    Since you are so certain that Bitcoin is going to appreciate in value against £sterling, why don't you borrow in £sterling to buy Bitcoins and pay back the loan+interest as your new Bitcoins appreciate?
    • IanSt
    • By IanSt 23rd Nov 17, 7:51 PM
    • 260 Posts
    • 194 Thanks
    IanSt
    I do not wish to debate the merits of cryptocurrencies - however you would no doubt be interested to know I have made over 300% interest over the past 7 months for my crypto investment : 85% Bitcoin + 15% other currencies, and I can recover my principal at any time 24/7, within a few minutes - however I am a RAGING bull on this.
    Originally posted by graffias
    I think 'RAGING bull' is a bit of an understatement, but please don't carried away that some short term winnings is going to guarantee long term winnings.

    As for the interest you say you got, well it's not interest it's the increase in value and I just wonder how many people in the past have said similar things about how much money they've made from tulip bulbs, the South Sea Company or whatever else was the sure thing at that moment in time.

    Remember scared money doesn't make money!
    Originally posted by graffias
    Remember in the eyes of most people bitcoin investing is not investing it is gambling.

    This is the only form of financial system I have EVER believed in - decentralized, open ledger, mathematically secured - ie we trust in mathematics - not bankers or government (who have let us down).
    Originally posted by graffias
    Anything mathematically secured can be mathematically broken - now it can take a long time to break, but with enough time and resources anything can be broken. You may not have heard of Marian Rejewski but I would hope you have heard of Alan Turing.

    I can well imagine with the sums of money sloshing around in bitcoins etc and the fact that they are decentralised will mean that there are a lot of people trying to break the codes and software behind them.
    • TrustyOven
    • By TrustyOven 23rd Nov 17, 9:12 PM
    • 710 Posts
    • 738 Thanks
    TrustyOven
    As for the interest you say you got, well it's not interest it's the increase in value
    Originally posted by IanSt
    +1

    My policy is to not trust anyone that confuses interest with capital gain.

    When you invest in something you totally understand and totally believe in that's when you get someplace! This is the only form of financial system I have EVER believed in - decentralized, open ledger, mathematically secured - ie we trust in mathematics - not bankers or government (who have let us down).
    by graffias
    I also dont trust anyone that thinks that just because some technology uses mathematics, it is impervious to attack, manipulation or distortion. Crypto can be insecure. Didn't the NSA leaks in the last handful of years cause Schneier to say that at least one of the commonly used crypto algorithms looks like it had magic values deliberately chosen by the NSA in order to give them a master key?

    E.g.:
    https://it.slashdot.org/story/13/09/11/1224252/are-the-nist-standard-elliptic-curves-back-doored

    More issues: https://yro.slashdot.org/story/13/09/28/0219235/did-nist-cripple-sha-3

    What exactly does Bitcoin use, I don't know since I havn't researched it, but i would be cautious about boasting that Bitcoin is totally secure.

    Also... why the hate for bankers? They never let me down. Thus, I don't trust you, graffias.
    Goals
    Save £12k in 2017 #016 (£4212.06 / £10k) (42.12%)
    Save £12k in 2016 #041 (£4558.28 / £6k) (75.97%)
    Save £12k in 2014 #192 (£4115.62 / £5k) (82.3%)
    • seacaitch
    • By seacaitch 23rd Nov 17, 9:40 PM
    • 76 Posts
    • 139 Thanks
    seacaitch
    Why bother with the hassle of trying to cash-in your pension?

    Since you are so certain that Bitcoin is going to appreciate in value against £sterling, why don't you borrow in £sterling to buy Bitcoins and pay back the loan+interest as your new Bitcoins appreciate?
    Originally posted by pafpcg
    To the OP:

    Cashing in your pension to punt it on BTC?.

    A real RAGING bull would be selling up their house, their car, the works, and punting the lot with maximum leverage.

    Grow a pair man!

    NB I've observed people doing very stupid speculative bets when greed has got the better of them - it virtually never ends well. On the few occasions it appears to initially work out, this is nearly always temporary, as the initial success imbues in the punter a totally false sense of their own skill, leading them subsequently (and usually swiftly) on to disaster when reality imposes itself.
    • DairyQueen
    • By DairyQueen 24th Nov 17, 10:18 AM
    • 293 Posts
    • 457 Thanks
    DairyQueen
    Just out of interest OP....

    Is this £24k DC your entire retirement pot? Do you have other pension savings? S&S ISAs? Cash Savings? Equity in house? Premium Bonds? Other Assets? Gold? Vintage Plonk? Classic Car?
    • graffias
    • By graffias 24th Nov 17, 5:34 PM
    • 36 Posts
    • 25 Thanks
    graffias
    You would think there WAS no pension crisis looming, let alone a major systemic crisis.

    And you could bear this in mind - a fund manager will still get paid their comfortable salary irrespective of how well your fund does - that's a lack of incentive. I could do better with £24K than these guys I'm sure - and I guess I've just trumped top Wall St traders over these past 7 months.

    As regards selling one's house or taking a loan out - that's not how I roll - I know the difference between calculated risk and downright recklessness.

    And yes, Bitcoin has taught me this one thing above all else - THE TRUE VALUE OF MY MONEY.

    That's why I am so uncomfortable with this arrangement.

    Happy days.

    Oh, and thanks to jennyjj for the HL SIPP link - and I didn't mean 'interest', meant to say 'return' - the old terminology is still a habit!

    Last edited by graffias; 24-11-2017 at 6:11 PM.
    'When I said I wanted to be a comedian everyone laughed - they're not laughing now'
    • TrustyOven
    • By TrustyOven 24th Nov 17, 6:36 PM
    • 710 Posts
    • 738 Thanks
    TrustyOven
    The picture above should be ignored. Pump and dump
    Goals
    Save £12k in 2017 #016 (£4212.06 / £10k) (42.12%)
    Save £12k in 2016 #041 (£4558.28 / £6k) (75.97%)
    Save £12k in 2014 #192 (£4115.62 / £5k) (82.3%)
    • Malthusian
    • By Malthusian 27th Nov 17, 11:02 AM
    • 4,242 Posts
    • 6,682 Thanks
    Malthusian
    And you could bear this in mind - a fund manager will still get paid their comfortable salary irrespective of how well your fund does - that's a lack of incentive.
    Fund managers are paid as a % of funds under management. Why aren't they plowing all their clients money into bitcoin and multiplying their salary by 16x over the next two years? (Not to mention the fact that after multiplying their clients' money by 16x in two years, they could set up their own hedge fund, write books and be set up for life, the 21st century's George Soros.)

    I could do better with £24K than these guys I'm sure - and I guess I've just trumped top Wall St traders over these past 7 months.
    Willy Wonka didn't actually want to know more about your seven month track record, you know.

    You know that century-old adage about how when the shoeshine boys start giving you stockmarket tips, it's time to sell? I think we can adjust that to "random pranksters trying to get on YouTube".
    • Credit-Crunched
    • By Credit-Crunched 27th Nov 17, 11:41 AM
    • 2,106 Posts
    • 4,132 Thanks
    Credit-Crunched
    Nope. Bitcoin doesn't pay interest. Well done if you made a capital gain.
    Originally posted by jennyjj
    It appears, with the phrases used, he is part of a bitcoin inverted triangle multi layer marketing definatley not a ponzi scheme scheme.

    Its all over Linkedin, one doesn't even hold a physical bit coin. When the music stops...
    • k6chris
    • By k6chris 27th Nov 17, 1:52 PM
    • 221 Posts
    • 380 Thanks
    k6chris
    Bitcoin is now accepted for the payment of many goods and services. Only this morning I used mine to buy some tulip bulbs from Holland!

    Whilst the concept of an independant digital store of value is a very valid one and possibly the existing Bitcoin framework is reasonable from a technology standpoint (certainly for the next few years), until the wild fluctuations in valuation (as distinct from value) start to demonstrate long term stability, it is not an effective store of value and as such not an effective currency. Just wait until liquidity dries up or a new story breaks (fake or real) about it being 'hacked'. Blockchain has huge potential, but is not infallible as a technology. How many ICOs have their been to date?? Which ones should you store your wealth in??

    By all means buy some for a punt or as the 'wild speculation' part of a portfolio, but not as a store of value for your main retirement funds.

    Yes, I am boring.....
    EatingSoup
    • TBC15
    • By TBC15 27th Nov 17, 4:57 PM
    • 490 Posts
    • 250 Thanks
    TBC15
    Probably the best investment strategy I’ve heard of in years. Warren must be choking on his hamburgers he missed this one.

    After Terry has given this due diligents I’m sure Fundsmith will go the whole 9yds.

    Best check out libraries that still have free internet access if you want to post your results.
    • Triumph13
    • By Triumph13 27th Nov 17, 5:48 PM
    • 1,187 Posts
    • 1,472 Thanks
    Triumph13
    Bitcoin is now accepted for the payment of many goods and services. Only this morning I used mine to buy some tulip bulbs from Holland!
    Originally posted by k6chris
    Love it! Did you use them to buy bubble bath from the South Seas too?
    Personally I have no need for any such speculative investments since a very nice man just gave me some magic beans in return for my cow.
    • DairyQueen
    • By DairyQueen 27th Nov 17, 6:25 PM
    • 293 Posts
    • 457 Thanks
    DairyQueen
    I am trying to imagine a world where all 50-somethings are desperate to cash-in their DB benefits (usually the assets of last resort) in order to speculate on the latest fad.

    Nope, too much of a stretch.

    OP: you came here for advice from those that know much more than you do. They are trying to protect you against your (impulsive, some would say 'dumb') self. If all you seek is reinforcement of this crazy strategy then you need to find another forum.
    • graffias
    • By graffias 27th Nov 17, 7:53 PM
    • 36 Posts
    • 25 Thanks
    graffias
    I still maintain my original position - a substantial portion of the pension fund needs to be allocated to Bitcoin.

    I just need to figure out how we can proceed.

    I would like to raise awareness of this issue more widely, so that people can know what is happening with their money.
    'When I said I wanted to be a comedian everyone laughed - they're not laughing now'
    • taking stock
    • By taking stock 27th Nov 17, 9:13 PM
    • 144 Posts
    • 176 Thanks
    taking stock
    this thread is great entertainment! in true MSE style, I've just cancelled my Netflix subscription and will spend my leisure time reading this instead!!
    • ermine
    • By ermine 27th Nov 17, 9:33 PM
    • 667 Posts
    • 1,011 Thanks
    ermine
    You would think there WAS no pension crisis looming, let alone a major systemic crisis.
    Originally posted by graffias
    Well that's all very well, but howsabout the bitcoin crisis looming? We have something of no intrinsic value, the 'value' of which is predicated on finding a greater fool to sell it to. That never ends well.

    Anyway OP, you've had two perfectly workable solutions to your 'put it all on bitcoin' conundrum. jennyjj's SIPP solution and IGIndex leveraged spread betting. So it's time to stop the talk and walk the walk. JFDI and get your pension into bitcoin right now. Or have you already done that and need to ramp the price by encouraging more sheeple into that Ponzi scheme?
    • Nitram29
    • By Nitram29 27th Nov 17, 9:47 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 28 Thanks
    Nitram29
    Might as well break out the bitcoin jokes,

    How many bitcoin miners does it take to change a lightbulb?
    A million, one to change the bulb and 999,999 to verify he did it.

    What!!!8217;s the difference between bitcoin and marriage?
    You only lose the house, kids and half your wealth when your marriage goes south.
    • OldMusicGuy
    • By OldMusicGuy 27th Nov 17, 9:55 PM
    • 396 Posts
    • 780 Thanks
    OldMusicGuy
    I would like to raise awareness of this issue more widely, so that people can know what is happening with their money.
    Originally posted by graffias
    This is NOT an issue. I know perfectly well what is happening with my money, as would anyone who is prepared to a little bit of research on the internet and on excellent forums like this. I also know what Bitcoin is, how it works and I don't want to go anywhere near it. You can if you want to, best of luck. But don't pretend you are doing anyone some kind of service.

    Like ermine said, you have had it explained to you how to do it if you want. I suggest you make the move and come back to us in a few years and tell us how it's gone.
    • k6chris
    • By k6chris 27th Nov 17, 10:00 PM
    • 221 Posts
    • 380 Thanks
    k6chris

    I would like to raise awareness of this issue more widely, so that people can know what is happening with their money.
    Originally posted by graffias
    Which of the currently available 1,324 different Crytocurrencies would you suggest will be the best place to move your retirement funds to and why?

    https://coinmarketcap.com/all/views/all/

    I hold mine in a mixture of fiat currerncy (GBP) and value creating companies (shares) as well as Government IOU (bonds), property (my house) and a (very) small amount in gold. I totally agree that holding all my retirement funds in FIAT currency would be stupid, so there is a clear need to diversify. Why is Bitcoin different? Is it the rapid recent escalation in valuation or the lack of a central bank? What specific risk are you trying to mitigate. What is the risk of a repeat of the 2014 theft of 7% of all the bitcoins in existance at that time (Mt Gox)? What is the risk of wallet loss, theft or corruption? What would happen if the cryptography was compromised, or thought to be so?

    There is a risk in whatever we do regarding a store for our 'wealth' / future funding. Cryptocurrencies WILL be around in 50 years time.....but why Bitcoin, why now and why your 'whole defined contribution pension plan'???
    EatingSoup
    • Credit-Crunched
    • By Credit-Crunched 28th Nov 17, 9:09 AM
    • 2,106 Posts
    • 4,132 Thanks
    Credit-Crunched
    Its a line up to a Ponzi Scheme introduction - nothing more nothing less.

    Sadly for the OP, he was not greeted with 'ooohh tell me more'...
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

610Posts Today

6,649Users online

Martin's Twitter