WARNING! Online bidding rip off at BCA British Car Auctions

RFW · 2 January 2012 at 2:21PM

QuackQuackOops wrote: »

OP, The practice is called Shill Bidding and is illegal.

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to express an opinion on this thread again, but I will anyway;)

I don't know of any auction house that has ever been convicted of this, there were some cases over collusion of prices, that was in the US and involved one company 'grassing' on another.

I'd have thought it was pretty difficult to bring a conviction. As an auctioneer customers often leave bids on slips of paper (I've done so as a buyer and as an auctioneer). The only time it becomes a problem is if someone buys something at an artificially inflated price, for shill bidding when something doesn't sell there isn't a victim and customers will act by not going back to that auction.

I remember one saleroom where every customer knew the auctioneer was shill bidding and accepted it, I know I've bought in sales where the auctioneer has been the only other bidder, no auctioneer has ever yet been able to make me pay more than I want to for something.

I'm sorry if that doesn't fit with the OP's world view.

esuhl · 2 January 2012 at 2:46PM

A couple of months ago I was off sick and happened to watch one of those daytime jumble-sale-rummage-then-go-to-auction type TV programmes. The auction was held in a respectable auction house and as one of the contestant's items was being auctioned the dealer/presenter commented that the auctioneer was using this technique to inflate the price. Unfortunately for the contestant the "wall" outbid the real bidder and I think the auction house returned the item to the seller (and possibly even charged them for putting the item in auction).

It certainly sounds like fraud - I can't imagine what special parts of the law are in play here. But from what I saw and heard, it's perfectly legal.

esuhl · 2 January 2012 at 2:59PM

Edvard wrote: »

Without anything to back this up this is slander at best and all out libel is a possibility. This poster obvious likes to be sued, BCA are a huge company, I hope for his sake they don't see this!

This cannot be slander as the post was written. And it's only libellous if untrue.

soolin · 2 January 2012 at 3:26PM

esuhl wrote: »

A couple of months ago I was off sick and happened to watch one of those daytime jumble-sale-rummage-then-go-to-auction type TV programmes. The auction was held in a respectable auction house and as one of the contestant's items was being auctioned the dealer/presenter commented that the auctioneer was using this technique to inflate the price. Unfortunately for the contestant the "wall" outbid the real bidder and I think the auction house returned the item to the seller (and possibly even charged them for putting the item in auction).

It certainly sounds like fraud - I can't imagine what special parts of the law are in play here. But from what I saw and heard, it's perfectly legal.

They are allowed to bid against a book or reserve price- I have not seen any TV programme where they take false bids.

esuhl · 2 January 2012 at 3:57PM

soolin wrote: »

They are allowed to bid against a book or reserve price- I have not seen any TV programme where they take false bids.

That's okay -- I wasn't suggesting that this technique was used so often that you would have seen it on TV yourself (unless you've watched every one, of course!).

The presenter said this technique was legal and at the discretion of the auctioneer, but clearly quite embarrassing if the imaginary bidder wins! If I remember rightly the auctioneer looking a bit flustered and mumbling something about the "wall" winning the bid so the item was unsold. He kept his eyes down and rapidly moved on to the next lot. The real bidder was at the front, and the auctioneer was pretending to take a bid from the back corner of the room.

Looking at the presenters, I think it was on Flog It (might be wrong - it's the only other one I can think of other than Bargain Hunt). I tried to find a clip of that auction online but I can't find one...

soolin · 2 January 2012 at 4:11PM

esuhl wrote: »

That's okay -- I wasn't suggesting that this technique was used so often that you would have seen it on TV yourself (unless you've watched every one, of course!).

The presenter said this technique was legal and at the discretion of the auctioneer, but clearly quite embarrassing if the imaginary bidder wins! If I remember rightly the auctioneer looking a bit flustered and mumbling something about the "wall" winning the bid so the item was unsold. He kept his eyes down and rapidly moved on to the next lot. The real bidder was at the front, and the auctioneer was pretending to take a bid from the back corner of the room.

Looking at the presenters, I think it was on Flog It (might be wrong - it's the only other one I can think of other than Bargain Hunt). I tried to find a clip of that auction online but I can't find one...

I suspect 'the book' won it rather than the wall- an entirely different matter and one which is common in all the auction houses I attend. Rather than start at the reserve they start lower and bid against the room. If the reserve is not met by a bid in the room then the book wins.

I am aware though of one auction house that has been caught taking bids from a made up bidder. However, the dealers in the room called them on it and asked the auctioneer to identify the bidder they were taking bids from and he blustered and said that he may have been mistaken. They have been caught again more recently and when I go to that house now it is not unusual for people to watch exactly where the auctineer is taking his bids.

esuhl · 2 January 2012 at 4:19PM

soolin wrote: »

I suspect 'the book' won it rather than the wall- an entirely different matter and one which is common in all the auction houses I attend. Rather than start at the reserve they start lower and bid against the room. If the reserve is not met by a bid in the room then the book wins.

If that was the case, surely the auctioneer wouldn't have returned the item as unsold, then? And presumably the explanation by the presenter wouldn't have been needed to explain it.

soolin wrote: »

I am aware though of one auction house that has been caught taking bids from a made up bidder. However, the dealers in the room called them on it and asked the auctioneer to identify the bidder they were taking bids from and he blustered and said that he may have been mistaken. They have been caught again more recently and when I go to that house now it is not unusual for people to watch exactly where the auctineer is taking his bids.

So is it actually illegal/forbidden? It must've been quite embarrassing for the auction house to have been "caught out" live on TV. As I said, the presenter said it was legal and down to the discretion of the auctioneer.

soolin · 2 January 2012 at 4:30PM

esuhl wrote: »

If that was the case, surely the auctioneer wouldn't have returned the item as unsold, then? And presumably the explanation by the presenter wouldn't have been needed to explain it..

About half of the houses I go to tell you in advance they will be making 'book' bids, but about half don't. So they will take bids and then if reserve isn't met just rstate the item is 'unsold'.

esuhl wrote: »

So is it actually illegal/forbidden? It must've been quite embarrassing for the auction house to have been "caught out" live on TV. As I said, the presenter said it was legal and down to the discretion of the auctioneer.

I always assumed making up false bids is illegal- but I have no idea what law or such like it falls foul of. The one house I know that has been caught out is not well thought of among dealers and they tend to be viewed as generally a little bit 'dodgy' and it is the only time I've seen fights almost break out between the auctioneer/staff and audience.

I've had trouble with them as well, took a bid from me that I hadn't made and were quite abusive to me when I refused to give them my paddle number as they said I had bid, when I had not.

RFW · 2 January 2012 at 6:22PM

soolin wrote: »

I always assumed making up false bids is illegal- but I have no idea what law or such like it falls foul of. The one house I know that has been caught out is not well thought of among dealers and they tend to be viewed as generally a little bit 'dodgy' and it is the only time I've seen fights almost break out between the auctioneer/staff and audience.

I've had trouble with them as well, took a bid from me that I hadn't made and were quite abusive to me when I refused to give them my paddle number as they said I had bid, when I had not.

When we first opened we regularly had Trading Standards officers visit, they were far more interested in what was being sold and never recall them even hanging around for the auction to see if the bids were genuine. Only a really stupid auctioneer could get caught for this, there are hundreds of excuses that could be made and difficult to prove that they weren't true.
I know I could email bids to half a dozen auction houses and they would bid on my behalf, there's no way anyone in the room would know they were genuine.

RFW · 2 January 2012 at 6:33PM

esuhl wrote: »

A couple of months ago I was off sick and happened to watch one of those daytime jumble-sale-rummage-then-go-to-auction type TV programmes. The auction was held in a respectable auction house and as one of the contestant's items was being auctioned the dealer/presenter commented that the auctioneer was using this technique to inflate the price. Unfortunately for the contestant the "wall" outbid the real bidder and I think the auction house returned the item to the seller (and possibly even charged them for putting the item in auction).

It certainly sounds like fraud - I can't imagine what special parts of the law are in play here. But from what I saw and heard, it's perfectly legal.

It isn't illegal to bid up to the reserve price or to bid on behalf of the vendor to a reasonable price. If the item doesn't sell there is no possible crime. The illegalities arise when for example someone bids on a car worth £5000 and ends up buying it for £6000 with the only other bidder being the auctioneer. A court case would be very difficult to prove, it's quite easy for the auctioneer to say that he believed someone scratching their nose was bidding, apologise and refund the difference.

I've often seen the TV auctioneers taking bids when no one was bidding, a lot of the time they edit the customers as some refuse to be on television, some of the early Bargain Hunt episodes had one man who bought nearly every lot!

WARNING! Online bidding rip off at BCA British Car Auctions

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