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  • FIRST POST
    • becky701
    • By becky701 18th Jan 18, 6:49 PM
    • 24Posts
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    becky701
    Car Finance advice
    • #1
    • 18th Jan 18, 6:49 PM
    Car Finance advice 18th Jan 18 at 6:49 PM
    Hi

    I'm looking to get a new car, not brand new, second hand for about 10K. I've looked at bank loans, which are about 180 p/m - I know the best option is to save but is the best alternative a loan like this?

    I also wondered how much you can haggle with car salesman, if it's going to 10.9K how much wiggle room do you usually have?

    Thank you
Page 2
    • eschaton
    • By eschaton 21st Jan 18, 2:51 AM
    • 1,898 Posts
    • 1,657 Thanks
    eschaton
    What percentage of people do you think borrow money for a car? I know very few that have ever bought one outright.
    Originally posted by tonycottee
    Agreed. These days pretty much everyone either borrows money or leases a car
    Originally posted by JReacher1
    You may possibly be right but I don't see the point in getting into great debt for a car.

    Save up and buy what you can afford.
    • parking_question_chap
    • By parking_question_chap 21st Jan 18, 4:43 PM
    • 2,280 Posts
    • 2,564 Thanks
    parking_question_chap

    Absolutely no NEED for a 4x4 for the OP but if she (and you) want one that’s fine but don’t try and kid people who know better that it’s because of the size.
    Originally posted by tykesi
    Nail on head.

    So many people have a want, and try to justify it by turning it into a need, in their ead at least.As long as its not a tiny hatchback, I think a dog would be more bothered about how you drove the vehicle, not the badge on the front.
    • henrik1971
    • By henrik1971 21st Jan 18, 10:05 PM
    • 201 Posts
    • 111 Thanks
    henrik1971
    You may possibly be right but I don't see the point in getting into great debt for a car.

    Save up and buy what you can afford.
    Originally posted by eschaton
    Agreed.

    Peoples attitudes to taking on substantial long term financial obligations have reached a point where this is now the norm. However, that doesn't mean it is prudent or wise or value for money, or necessary. I certainly wouldn't do it. As long as you buy carefully, a £500 car can be a reliable daily driver and also fine for ocassional long journeys.

    But life can be short and there's something to be said about doing what makes you happy from time to time. As long as people have considered the all costs and risks, they are going into it with their eyes open..
  • archived user
    Agreed.

    Peoples attitudes to taking on substantial long term financial obligations have reached a point where this is now the norm.
    Originally posted by henrik1971
    In the USA this has now got to the point that people think it perfectly normal to pay $500 a month for a car. Already in this country we've got to the point where people see no problem buying a car on finance which is worth more than their annual earnings.
    • vacheron
    • By vacheron 22nd Jan 18, 1:56 PM
    • 975 Posts
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    vacheron
    What percentage of people do you think borrow money for a car? I know very few that have ever bought one outright.
    Originally posted by tonycottee
    Based on my last car purchase I can give you a good idea.

    I bought a 15 month old Merc from a Mercedes Benz main dealer about 2 years ago using cash (well actually my debit card plus £500 on a credit card for the protection).

    When the car was ready to collect, they asked me to bring my driving licence with me when I came to collect it.

    I didn't have it with me, so I asked if a copy would be OK as I could have my wife scan it and e-mail it to me, only to be told "actually, you don't need to bring yours at all"

    So out of curiosity I asked why they told me to bring it if I didn't need it?

    Their reply was: "We only need it for proof of ID for if you take out the finance, and because 90% of the cars we sell are bought on our finance I asked you to bring it out of habit, sorry for the confusion".

    90% and that was just Mercedes dealer finance, not even those who arranged their own loan!
    Last edited by vacheron; 22-01-2018 at 2:00 PM.
    • The rich buy assets.
    • The poor only have expenses.
    • The middle class buy liabilities they think are assets.
    Robert T. Kiyosaki
    • Herzlos
    • By Herzlos 22nd Jan 18, 2:31 PM
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    Herzlos
    Finance can often make a lot more sense than cash, with a low enough interest rate or to get access to the dealer contributions. 90% are taking the car out with finance, but we don't know how many are clearing it when they get home.

    Already in this country we've got to the point where people see no problem buying a car on finance which is worth more than their annual earnings.
    Originally posted by Tarambor
    Can you cite an example of this? I seriously doubt any finance company will let them finance a car for more than their annual salary.
    Last edited by Herzlos; 22-01-2018 at 2:33 PM.
    • henrik1971
    • By henrik1971 22nd Jan 18, 7:20 PM
    • 201 Posts
    • 111 Thanks
    henrik1971
    Finance can often make a lot more sense than cash, with a low enough interest rate or to get access to the dealer contributions. 90% are taking the car out with finance, but we don't know how many are clearing it when they get home.
    Originally posted by Herzlos
    My guesstimates from what I see happening around me is a lot of people want a newish car, but i bet surprisingly few people have £20k or even £10k just laying around in their bank accounts so they use some form of credit. We've all seen these surveys about the large proportion of the population who have no savings, and the next tranche of people who would be in dire straits if their salary were to arrive late one month.

    As to people going into a Merc Dealership, going home and clearing the finance, it does happen - one of my mates did it at the BMW dealers with a 330d estate and saved several thousand on the cash price, but I do think such people are the exception.

    Massive generalisation here, but why do 'old money' wealthy people tend to have old Jags and old Land Rovers - yet I can take you to a street a few miles from where I live and there are rows of terraced houses worth £80-90k, yet parked outside a lot of them are BMWs, Mercs, Audis, and all sorts of other fancy sport or SUV style cars?

    Car buying is not just about buying a means of transport. A big part of it is a lifestyle statement/choice based on how you see youself and what image of yourself you want to project to others. Those with "less" (money, confidence, etc.) might subconsciously over compensate by spending more than is sensible.

    The only people buying new (or newish) cars who could legitimately disagree with that are those people who have bought a poverty-spec Dacia or similar.
    • Human Being
    • By Human Being 23rd Jan 18, 9:38 AM
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    Human Being
    I think that this is a great forum, but I think some of the views are very simplistic.

    1. Just because you can buy a perfectly good car for significantly less than £10k... why should that automatically be the best option? If everyone had this mindset, nobody would buy new or more expensive cars and thus these 'perfectly good' £4.5k cars wouldn't exist for all you thrifty money savers!

    2. Some people like nicer cars, which is absolutely fine.

    3. I agree, some people borrow irresponsibly or get very poor value pcp/lease deals on cars and end up trapped or in trouble. However, borrowing to buy isn't necessarily bad, as long as you can afford the repayments and the interest rate is reasonable. Importantly, you should ensure that you won't miss the money, can still afford to save, pay for bills, socialising, pensions, etc.

    4. Often it's better to borrow to purchase a high value item such as a car, even if you have the cash in the bank. For instance, I am looking for a used car, budget is £25k. I could afford to pay cash for this car, however, in my opinion, it's sensible to borrow the money required with a cheap loan (3%). This allows me to keep hold of my cash which brings security, but also allows me to invest my cash elsewhere where I can make a larger return on my investment than the interest that I'm paying on my loan.

    5. If we should all save up to buy things first... why do you have mortgages? I bet most of you wouldn't believe the amount of interest paid on your mortgage over a 25 year term (often well over £100k!).

    Being a saver is great, but security is valuable and investing/using your money wisely is often ignored.
    Last edited by Human Being; 23-01-2018 at 10:48 AM.
    • ratrace
    • By ratrace 23rd Jan 18, 4:16 PM
    • 760 Posts
    • 537 Thanks
    ratrace
    My guesstimates from what I see happening around me is a lot of people want a newish car, but i bet surprisingly few people have £20k or even £10k just laying around in their bank accounts so they use some form of credit. We've all seen these surveys about the large proportion of the population who have no savings, and the next tranche of people who would be in dire straits if their salary were to arrive late one month.

    As to people going into a Merc Dealership, going home and clearing the finance, it does happen - one of my mates did it at the BMW dealers with a 330d estate and saved several thousand on the cash price, but I do think such people are the exception.

    Massive generalisation here, but why do 'old money' wealthy people tend to have old Jags and old Land Rovers - yet I can take you to a street a few miles from where I live and there are rows of terraced houses worth £80-90k, yet parked outside a lot of them are BMWs, Mercs, Audis, and all sorts of other fancy sport or SUV style cars?

    Car buying is not just about buying a means of transport. A big part of it is a lifestyle statement/choice based on how you see youself and what image of yourself you want to project to others. Those with "less" (money, confidence, etc.) might subconsciously over compensate by spending more than is sensible.

    The only people buying new (or newish) cars who could legitimately disagree with that are those people who have bought a poverty-spec Dacia or similar.
    Originally posted by henrik1971

    I agree to a point but like you said a massive generalization, we cannot tar everyone with the same brush, some people are huge car fans like me, some people like to drink, some like to smoke, some like to go on 2 hoidays, some like to gamble, some like to spend on the house and some just like cars

    im currently looking for a bmw e46 m3 or an e60 m5 why because im a big car nut, for me a car is my true passion always loved cars love working on them everyday makes me happy, id rather tinker about with an engine than sit inside and watch fictional soaps.

    i have a few e30's classics parked up which i bought dirt cheap a few years ago the 325i m-tech 2 has trippled in value but im still holding on to it, its my pride and joy

    i dont buy cars because i want to show off or have low self confidence, or its a status thing and i could not give a monkys what my friends or neighbours think, the day they start paying my bills for me thats the day i may be interested in their opinion and what they think

    just thought id put another side across
    “People are caught up in an egotistic artificial rat race to display a false image to society. We want the biggest house, fanciest car, and we don't mind paying the sky high mortgage to put up that show. We sacrifice our biggest assets our health and time, We feel happy when we see people look up to us and see how successful we are”

    Rat Race
    • Human Being
    • By Human Being 23rd Jan 18, 4:38 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Human Being
    I agree to a point but like you said a massive generalization, we cannot tar everyone with the same brush, some people are huge car fans like me, some people like to drink, some like to smoke, some like to go on 2 hoidays, some like to gamble, some like to spend on the house and some just like cars
    Originally posted by ratrace
    And there's nothing wrong with any of this. As long as you're living within your means it's nobodies business what you spend your cash on. Whether it's lifestyle statement, a reflection on how you'd like others to perceive you or simply because you're a car nut; it's nobodies business other than your own and is irrelevant in this forum.

    However, none of these reasons are an excuse for spending beyond your means. I wouldn't go out and spend £50k on a sports car "because I'm a car nut". If I got an unsecured loan for this figure I could afford to repay it comfortably, but still I recognised that it would be poor judgement. I need to save for my future, invest money in other ways, ensure that if I lost my job I wouldn't be stuffed, may want to start a family in a few years, etc.
    • ratrace
    • By ratrace 23rd Jan 18, 8:02 PM
    • 760 Posts
    • 537 Thanks
    ratrace
    And there's nothing wrong with any of this. As long as you're living within your means it's nobodies business what you spend your cash on. Whether it's lifestyle statement, a reflection on how you'd like others to perceive you or simply because you're a car nut; it's nobodies business other than your own and is irrelevant in this forum.

    However, none of these reasons are an excuse for spending beyond your means. I wouldn't go out and spend £50k on a sports car "because I'm a car nut". If I got an unsecured loan for this figure I could afford to repay it comfortably, but still I recognised that it would be poor judgement. I need to save for my future, invest money in other ways, ensure that if I lost my job I wouldn't be stuffed, may want to start a family in a few years, etc.
    Originally posted by Human Being
    Thats the point im making, its nobody's bussiness what you do or dont do with your money
    “People are caught up in an egotistic artificial rat race to display a false image to society. We want the biggest house, fanciest car, and we don't mind paying the sky high mortgage to put up that show. We sacrifice our biggest assets our health and time, We feel happy when we see people look up to us and see how successful we are”

    Rat Race
  • archived user
    4. Often it's better to borrow to purchase a high value item such as a car, even if you have the cash in the bank. For instance, I am looking for a used car, budget is £25k. I could afford to pay cash for this car, however, in my opinion, it's sensible to borrow the money required with a cheap loan (3%). This allows me to keep hold of my cash which brings security, but also allows me to invest my cash elsewhere where I can make a larger return on my investment than the interest that I'm paying on my loan.
    Originally posted by Human Being
    16 million people in this country have less than £100 in savings. The average UK household debt is £13,000 excluding mortgages. I can guarantee that te majority of them are not getting car finance because they have the equivalent amount sat in a bank account or investment vehicle where it gets higher returns than the loan interest. They're getting them on finance because they're basically plastic millionaires and actually broke but have the ability to get more credit.
    • Human Being
    • By Human Being 24th Jan 18, 10:07 AM
    • 5 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Human Being
    16 million people in this country have less than £100 in savings. The average UK household debt is £13,000 excluding mortgages. I can guarantee that te majority of them are not getting car finance because they have the equivalent amount sat in a bank account or investment vehicle where it gets higher returns than the loan interest. They're getting them on finance because they're basically plastic millionaires and actually broke but have the ability to get more credit.
    Originally posted by Tarambor
    I'm sure you're right. I'm new to the forum and having looked around I'm shocked to see the levels of debt people manage to get themselves into - especially the young who've accrued thousands of pounds worth of debt simply by living beyond their means.

    However, you've just selected a particular demographic. There are 51 million other people in the UK and for a large proportion of those people, my advice (or opinion on the matter) might be useful and applicable for them. Anyway, my approach, I believe, is still desirable for everyone - just because you're in a bad financial position, it does't mean that a similar mentality and financial position shouldn't be your goal.

    Most people in my circles have a fair amount of disposable income and also have savings. We've had conversations in the past about how best to spend/save/invest our money - including car purchases. A friend purchased a used car with a PCP agreement over 3 years and final balloon payment, all with a high APR. In hindsight, he realised that it would have been cheaper and less risky to get a cheap loan to pay for the car over 5 years. Either way, he doesn't miss the money. He has approx. £20k savings, but preferred to keep hold of that for the security it brings and as he wishes to move house within a couple of years, it makes sense for him to keep the cash towards his deposit - which will also help him to secure a better rate on his mortgage.
    Last edited by Human Being; 24-01-2018 at 11:24 AM.
    • enthusiasticsaver
    • By enthusiasticsaver 24th Jan 18, 11:48 AM
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    • 20,292 Thanks
    enthusiasticsaver
    These PCP deals that we see a lot over on the DFW forum seem to be really expensive, presumably because they only apply to new cars? Correct me if I am wrong but because of heavy depreciation does that not mean that the loan is always higher than the value of the car and once you start on this route you are never able to buy a car because you don't have a car to trade in as you would at the end of an unsecured loan?

    My DH always had company cars and bought a 2 year old car in cash (£12k) from his pension lump sum when he retired a few years ago. He intends to hang on to it for another 4 or 5 years at least but we save £250 a month to go towards cars. My car was newer (1 year old) and cost a bit more at £13k but I traded in my old car at £6k and paid £7k cash from savings. If you are trading in an old vehicle it is perfectly possible to buy it without finance if you have 4 or 5 years notice it is going to need changing which presumably most of us know roughly how much mileage we will do and when we would want to replace it to keep a reliable car going.

    The only finance we have ever used is I bought a brand new convertible on interest free credit which I kept for 7 years before needing to change it as no good for carrying grandchildren around. All the rest have been bought by trading in and adding savings.
    Early retired in December 2017

    I'm a Board Guide on the Debt-Free Wannabe, Mortgages and Endowments, Banking and Budgeting boards. I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly. Any views are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com. Pease remember, board guides don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • enthusiasticsaver
    • By enthusiasticsaver 24th Jan 18, 11:56 AM
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    • 20,292 Thanks
    enthusiasticsaver
    Hi

    I'm looking to get a new car, not brand new, second hand for about 10K. I've looked at bank loans, which are about 180 p/m - I know the best option is to save but is the best alternative a loan like this?

    I also wondered how much you can haggle with car salesman, if it's going to 10.9K how much wiggle room do you usually have?

    Thank you
    Originally posted by becky701
    I personally would tend to go for a car at about that value simply because the more expensive the car generally the more reliable it is and the less needs spending in maintenance. Are you trading in another vehicle as we have always managed to haggle with a car salesman either on the trade in part exchange of the old vehicle or bringing down the price of the new one. You can try saying you cannot go above a certain amount and see if they will move.

    If you don't have savings or another car to part exchange then an unsecured loan would be the best option in my opinion. You can get quite cheap ones if you don't have lots of other debt and a good credit history. My advice would be work out how much you can afford each month and go for the shortest term possible. Once the term is up continue putting that money aside as savings for the replacement car.
    Early retired in December 2017

    I'm a Board Guide on the Debt-Free Wannabe, Mortgages and Endowments, Banking and Budgeting boards. I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly. Any views are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com. Pease remember, board guides don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • henrik1971
    • By henrik1971 24th Jan 18, 7:07 PM
    • 201 Posts
    • 111 Thanks
    henrik1971
    I'm sure you're right. I'm new to the forum and having looked around I'm shocked to see the levels of debt people manage to get themselves into - especially the young who've accrued thousands of pounds worth of debt simply by living beyond their means.

    A friend purchased a used car with a PCP agreement over 3 years and final balloon payment, all with a high APR. In hindsight, he realised that it would have been cheaper and less risky to get a cheap loan to pay for the car over 5 years. Either way, he doesn't miss the money. He has approx. £20k savings, but preferred to keep hold of that for the security it brings and as he wishes to move house within a couple of years, it makes sense for him to keep the cash towards his deposit - which will also help him to secure a better rate on his mortgage.
    Originally posted by Human Being
    Just on the above point - and the final paragraph in particular, which I find interesting, as I find myself doing this as well - getting out the credit card to pay for something, even though I have the money in the bank. For a lot of people taking on small-medium amounts of credit barely registers as having any significance at all. The main thing is my savings are sitting pretty and whilst that savings figure stays above a certain level, I'm feeling financially bullet-proof. If you think about that for five seconds, you realise that it is self-deluding behaviour.

    I was over on another thread earlier about the huge impact unsecured borrowing can have when going for a mortgage. Sure, you friend will have the £20k cash for the deposit, but his affordability will be severly impacted. In the example on the mortgages forum, having £15k on credit can reduce how much you can borrow on a mortgage by £80-90k...

    Also, these people who talk about getting £10k personal loans at 3% but keeping their money invested getting a higher return: that's fine, but if your capital really is earning you a worthwhile margin above 3% per annum, its most likely illiquid in something like equities or property. Those sorts of investments have their own risks and you can't always get at the cash quickly if an emergency arises.

    Two final things to say:
    1. I think we can agree that people are free to borrow or take out PCP, or whatever, and if they've really carefully considered all the benefits, costs and risks. Its for no one on here to say that is a right or wrong choice (for them)
    2. Let's not forget this is moneysaving website. That means different things to different people. For a lot of people coming to this website they need help and advice on relatively basic budgeting and money management principles and the majority of advice is tailored to that audience. There are of course others on the site who (for example) want to know the cheapest way to do something extravagant, like buy an expensive car and can afford to do it without jeopdarising other areas of their life. In some ways, there should be a separate forum for those people and those types of requests. Then we could dispense with all the opinions on the merits of other people's finances and the quality of their spending decisions.
  • archived user
    These PCP deals that we see a lot over on the DFW forum seem to be really expensive, presumably because they only apply to new cars? Correct me if I am wrong but because of heavy depreciation does that not mean that the loan is always higher than the value of the car and once you start on this route you are never able to buy a car because you don't have a car to trade in as you would at the end of an unsecured loan?
    Originally posted by enthusiasticsaver
    That is exactly what happens, it is the PCP trap and its why it is pushed as much as it is. Car dealers get a guaranteed customer every 3 years, finance companies do, the car manufacturers do, the financially savvy of us do by there being a glut of 3/4 year old low mileage full service history vehicles coming onto the market every year. Basically every single person in the chain wins except the person who signs up for the deal.
    • Niv
    • By Niv 25th Jan 18, 3:37 PM
    • 1,774 Posts
    • 1,578 Thanks
    Niv
    That is exactly what happens, it is the PCP trap and its why it is pushed as much as it is. Car dealers get a guaranteed customer every 3 years, finance companies do, the car manufacturers do, the financially savvy of us do by there being a glut of 3/4 year old low mileage full service history vehicles coming onto the market every year. Basically every single person in the chain wins except the person who signs up for the deal.
    Originally posted by Tarambor


    I am probably going to be told I did a terrible deal but here goes anyway.


    I have a need for a reliable car as I do ~20k miles a year for work but I only had ~4k in cash. I did take a look at some second hand cars around that price and was not convinced they would last very long / was concerned about their current mileage / did not know how the car had been treated - all excuses some may say - fair enough I cba to argue the point.


    I entered a PCP deal on a new car - sticker price 21500. Paid 4k deposit and over the 42month term will pay an additional 10.5k. I have the option to purchase the car at the end for a little under 6k. I had a £500 prepaid cc and three years full AA cover included.


    If I buy the car in the end I will have paid £20k for the car and nothing for breakdown cover for three years. 1.5k less than had I bought it outright at sticker price (ok I guess if you buy outright you would also get a discount? so 1.5k may be optimistic?)


    Do you guys think this is a bad deal?
    YNWA

    Target: Mortgage free by 58.
    • Pixie5740
    • By Pixie5740 25th Jan 18, 3:52 PM
    • 13,750 Posts
    • 19,905 Thanks
    Pixie5740
    I am probably going to be told I did a terrible deal but here goes anyway.


    I have a need for a reliable car as I do ~20k miles a year for work but I only had ~4k in cash. I did take a look at some second hand cars around that price and was not convinced they would last very long / was concerned about their current mileage / did not know how the car had been treated - all excuses some may say - fair enough I cba to argue the point.


    I entered a PCP deal on a new car - sticker price 21500. Paid 4k deposit and over the 42month term will pay an additional 10.5k. I have the option to purchase the car at the end for a little under 6k. I had a £500 prepaid cc and three years full AA cover included.


    If I buy the car in the end I will have paid £20k for the car and nothing for breakdown cover for three years. 1.5k less than had I bought it outright at sticker price (ok I guess if you buy outright you would also get a discount? so 1.5k may be optimistic?)


    Do you guys think this is a bad deal?
    Originally posted by Niv
    Are you happy with the car you chose? Are you happy with the amount you are paying for the car? If the answers to both those questions is "yes" then you got a good deal.

    Generally you only get a discount, or a decent discount, if you take out finance with the dealership. That's not to say that someone couldn't take out the dealership's finance to get the discount and then pay the finance off.

    If when you say "new car" you mean a new car as in brand spanking new rather than just new to you, check out Drive the Deal or Car Wow to get the largest discount you possibly can should you ever wish to buy a brand spanking new car.

    Newness is no guarantee of reliability. Plenty of things can go wrong with brand new cars, my friend's steering stopped working on new car....whilst she was driving.
    • Niv
    • By Niv 25th Jan 18, 4:15 PM
    • 1,774 Posts
    • 1,578 Thanks
    Niv
    Are you happy with the car you chose? Are you happy with the amount you are paying for the car? If the answers to both those questions is "yes" then you got a good deal.

    Generally you only get a discount, or a decent discount, if you take out finance with the dealership. That's not to say that someone couldn't take out the dealership's finance to get the discount and then pay the finance off.

    If when you say "new car" you mean a new car as in brand spanking new rather than just new to you, check out Drive the Deal or Car Wow to get the largest discount you possibly can should you ever wish to buy a brand spanking new car.

    Newness is no guarantee of reliability. Plenty of things can go wrong with brand new cars, my friend's steering stopped working on new car....whilst she was driving.
    Originally posted by Pixie5740

    Hi Pixie, Thanks for taking the time to respond. It is a brand new car, never had one before, or really seriously considered it, however after having company cars for the last 10years I guess I got used to them and was pleased with the reliability. I do accept that new does not guarantee reliable, but as it is new it is free (at least in the first 12 months cant recall if its longer) to get it fixed if anything 'non consumable' goes wrong so even if it does break down it doesn't cost me any more.


    I am happy with the car, it is not top of the range or supercharged, but overall that's not really a complaint


    I will check out those websites when the time comes, although current plan is to buy at end of deal and drive it until it dies.


    Hope your friend was ok, I bet that was scary for her !
    YNWA

    Target: Mortgage free by 58.
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