keep/change the heating?

G_M · 8 November 2018 at 9:39PM

Looking at a new house (OK, 100 yrs old but you know what I mean!).

It's a doer-upper, and probably my last move, so long term. Needs gutting, moving internal walls, re-wire, etc so obviously the ideal time to change the heating system.

Currently LPG which I hate so was planning to chamge - I currently use oil so familiar with that.

However my builder turned it on and it fired up and the rads all got nice a toasty really fast. And the Bosch boiler is apparently just 2 years old so builder said keep it.

Changing it would obviously add cost to the renovation: new boiler, new oil tank, new supply pipe, maybe new rads + current boiler sits neatly on wall in kitchen cupboard whereas oil boilers are bigger and (I think) all floor mounted.

So I'm now thinking of learning to live with LPG....

Or should I think out of the box and look into heat pumps or something else as part of the renovation.

Opinions/suggestions welcome however off-the-wall!

Mister_G · 9 November 2018 at 12:27PM

If the current LPG system works well, I'd be inclined to keep it, especially with the boiler only being 2 years old.

I pay 30p/litre for LPG, whereas oil is about 50p/litre at the moment. I know that the calorific value of LPG is less than oil, but taking that into account, LPG is currently still cheaper per kW than oil.

You could consider ASHP, but there would be a significant capital outlay required including upsizing the radiators or installing underfloor heating. You will get the RHI, but you'd need to do your own sums to see what the payback time would be.

Unless you've got a very large garden, I suspect that GSHP would be out of the question.

And of course, as others have said on this forum, good insulation is essential no matter which system you go for.

Rodders53 · 9 November 2018 at 5:01PM

It'll take a very long time to pay back the removal of lpg tank and boiler (presumably a large bulk tank, not 47kg cylinders like my neighbours use) and install oil instead.

Oil boilers can be installed 'outside' in an enclosure and Grant also do a wall hung https://www.grantuk.com/product-list/oil-fired-boilers/vortex-eco-internal-wall-hung/ (but you'd have the issue of raising the oil up to the burner rather than relying on gravity).

We have oil and have installed air-to-air heat pumps to two living rooms and one bedroom to provide comfort cooling, plus backup (and quick) heating boost.

Underfloor heating is OK but I'd never want it again. Neither easily controllable nor responsive.

Spend money on insulation and stopping unwanted air changes; not new wet heating systems (assuming yours checks out to be sound).

PS Not sure why you hate lpg? Boilers are cheaper and need minimal servicing. In the village here we have three developments going on: 150+ homes all lpg from shared underground tanks; 52 also sharing lpg tanks and 9 homes in our lane which appear to be having single-dwelling Calor tanks installed under their driveways.
OK you may be (initially) tied into Calor or Flogas but can switch down the line.
If using lpg bottled gas then you pay through the nose, of course.

G_M · 9 November 2018 at 11:57PM

Thanks. Yes insulation goes without saying...

It's a calor tank in the garden. not cylinders.

I hadn't realised LPG was cheaper than oil per kw....though that can change as prices of both will fluctuate - and who can foresee the future?

Yes i too have doubts about underfloor heating, but "air-to-air heat pumps .... to provide comfort cooling, plus backup (and quick) heating boost." How does that work? What's the installation/running costs?

I'm coming round to the idea of saving money upfront and keeping the LPG/boiler. There's a shed-load of other costs.....!!

Mister_G · 10 November 2018 at 12:11PM

Certainly with LPG, the prices can vary enormously (more so than oil) and the big suppliers will want to lock you into a 2 year contract.

However, there are a number of smaller independents who offer better prices than the likes of Calor and Flogas (probably the most notorious for hiking prices in year 2).

Do your research to see if you have any in your area. Woldlink seem to come out well.

FreeBear · 10 November 2018 at 1:52PM

G_M wrote: »

but "air-to-air heat pumps .... to provide comfort cooling, plus backup (and quick) heating boost." How does that work? What's the installation/running costs?

Would be worth having a read of this thread - https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5916052

Get it wrong, and ASHP & GSHP can work out to be very expensive to run. If you want a secondary heat source that isn't reliant on electricity, then a wood or multifuel stove is well worth having.

The Arada stove I have keeps the lounge nice and toasty, and also helps to lift the temperature of the rest of the house. A major improvement over the original open fire, and a lot safer (no more spitting embers across the room). If I were to install another stove, I'd go for a Stovax Riva 50 (or similar) and have it duct warm air to other rooms.

Rodders53 · 10 November 2018 at 4:57PM

https://nottenergy.com/our-services/resources/energy-cost-comparison/ while not 100% accurate on fuel pricing gives some idea.

We wanted air conditioning to get our bedroom comfortable for sleeping and help with swmbo's hay fever in the main living areas. The Fujitsu split packs we have are very quiet and don't seem to use a lot of electric (the house is only 10 years old so pretty good insulation.

To be frank I don't care too much about how much they cost as the comfort is key and we can afford to pay the bills.

Price of units and installation depends on a lot of factors (no least make and model of heat pump). But ours came in at around the £4k mark (2x 3.5kW and 1x 4.2kW).

Wood and suchlike stoves can work for some; but I suspect for us they'd be too uncontrollable. Just 15 minutes ago swmbo said it was a bit chilly so the heat pump went on; just been instructed to turn it off again.

Mister_G · 10 November 2018 at 6:15PM

Rodders53 wrote: »

https://nottenergy.com/our-services/resources/energy-cost-comparison/ while not 100% accurate on fuel pricing gives some idea.

Indeed. Current LPG is about 30ppl and Oil (Kerosene/Gas Oil) about 50ppl.

J_B · 11 November 2018 at 4:54PM

Mister_G wrote: »

Indeed. Current LPG is about 30ppl and Oil (Kerosene/Gas Oil) about 50ppl.

But, sadly, the crooks who run the LPG industry don't all charge 30ppl .. maybe double that?? :mad:

Davesnave · 12 November 2018 at 9:21AM

Wood burner back-up is OK if you have enough storage while it's waiting to be dry enough. There's kiln-dried, of course, but not very environmentally friendly, or cheap.

We're now fully up and running with properly dry wood and what a difference it makes! Loads of suppliers, but not one who can match my own stuff, held for 2 years.

silverwhistle · 15 November 2018 at 4:51PM

I'd back up what Davesnave says regarding wood as I'm the scrounging queen and also work two years ahead.

As a point of reference I have GCH and domestic water (cooking is electric) in my 3 bedroom terrace and use only 1000/1100 kwh of gas a year due to the use of a wood burner in the lounge and surplus solar PV doing the hot water for 8 months of the year and a useful but patchy contribution even in the current months - yesterday 2.13kwh into the immersion, nothing today!

The upstairs can occasionally get a bit cool but running the stove for longer during the cold months helps. Tonight and the last couple of nights I've not had CH or stove on here on the south coast. I'm thinking of installing a single room MHRV unit in my bathroom so I don't lose all that heat from my post-football/training hot baths out my extractor fan.

keep/change the heating?

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