Teacher pension scheme options

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  • cobson
    cobson Posts: 161
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    GAry wrote: »
    See specifically this statement: -
    "If you are a transition member and have service in the final salary and career average
    arrangements, you will have to take all your benefits (final salary and career average) at
    the same time and these will be actuarially reduced."

    This paragraph is from the section in the factsheet that deals with early retirement, i.e. those who are 55 but have not yet reached NRA in their final salary scheme. In this case the member does have to take their benefits from both schemes.

    If your wife has reached NRA in her final salary scheme, then this section doesn't apply to her. The penultimate paragraph on page 3 applies instead, where it says that the member can choose what to do with the career average scheme. This is the case for both tapered and transition members.

    I wonder if someone at the DoE has read the above paragraph and incorrectly assumed that it applies to transition members in all circumstances, not understanding that it only applies to early retirement ? That would explain their original letter to you.
  • GAry
    GAry Posts: 25
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    I wonder if someone at the DoE has read the above paragraph and incorrectly assumed that it applies to transition members in all circumstances, not understanding that it only applies to early retirement ? That would explain their original letter to you.

    I suspect you are right. Factsheet 4 could be misinterpreted easily and this particular paragraph taken out of context (as its under the early retirement section).

    We have queried this point a number of times and they have repeated it every time.

    However, they have also mis-classed my wife as a 'transition' member instead of a 'taper/partial protected' member, so this paragraph can't apply, so it will be interesting to see what they come back with this time.

    It looks like tigerspill is also now going to query the same point, with his wife being a 'transition' member.

    I am now looking for the the actual legislation, because it says this -

    "The following documents are for information purposes and if there is any differences between the legislation governing this scheme and the information contained within, the legislation will apply"

    when referring to the Factsheets etc.

    from here: https://www.education-ni.gov.uk/articles/overview-northern-ireland-teachers-pension-scheme-nitps
  • GAry wrote: »
    Hi tigerspill

    See Factsheet 4 -
    https://www.education-ni.gov.uk/sites/default/files/publications/education/nitps-factsheet-4-retirement_0.pdf

    See specifically this statement: -
    "If you are a transition member and have service in the final salary and career average
    arrangements, you will have to take all your benefits (final salary and career average) at
    the same time and these will be actuarially reduced."

    My Wife has been classed incorrectly as a 'Transition' member and they tell her that she can't take them separately as you suggest. Our original plan was to take the NRA 60 at age 60 and then the CARE at a later date (before 67 it would be actuarially reduced).

    Contact email is: nitpsabsqueries@education-ni.gov.uk

    A Taper member should be able to take them separately, but we have not yet received confirmation back yet.

    If NITPS are correct (??), then it would appear that the NI scheme is different to the rest of the UK and Transition members don't have the same flexibility to take both schemes at different dates as per their UK colleagues.

    Please check with the UTU; it could be that the NITPS have got it wrong.

    Also, I suggest doing the breakeven maths for taking the CARE scheme early, we found that the breakeven point was surprising 'old' and are thus now likely to take it at least a few years before NRA67.

    I definitely read something different a couple of days ago from the TPSNI site (might have been in the FAQ - not sure). I will try to dig it out again.
    From memory it said that if you reach NRA of the FS scheme - you can take them independently.
    I will look tomorrow to see if I can find it.
  • GAry
    GAry Posts: 25
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    I definitely read something different a couple of days ago from the TPSNI site (might have been in the FAQ - not sure). I will try to dig it out again.
    From memory it said that if you reach NRA of the FS scheme - you can take them independently.
    I will look tomorrow to see if I can find it.


    Try this (sent to NITPS in Londonderry in one of our earlier emails, but in the last letter received they insist it is not possible if a 'Transition' member)-

    NITPS FAQs - (https://www.education-ni.gov.uk/sites/default/files/publications/de/NI-Teachers-pension-scheme-2015-frequently-asked-questions.pdf)

    " Age Retirement!
    Where the member retires (is out-of-service) final salary benefits can be taken without career average benefits when a member reaches their NPA in their existing final salary arrangements. The member will be able to claim their benefits from final salary, without having to claim their benefits from the career average arrangements. "

    "If a member is out of service, and they have reached their NPA in their NPA 60 or NPA 65 scheme they can elect to take their benefits from the final salary arrangements only and can defer taking their benefits from the career average scheme."
  • tigerspill
    tigerspill Posts: 764
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    edited 25 November 2019 at 7:28PM
    UPDATE - just realised you posted this a few minutes ago. But I see nothing to indicate this is not she Transition members.

    From the FAQ for the NI TPS -

    A member is planning to take Actuarial Adjusted Benefits (AAB) / Actuarial Reduced Benefits (ARB) / Early Retirement – do they have to take all their benefits at the same time?
    If a member is applying for benefits before reaching their NPA in the final salary arrangements, they will have to take all their retirement benefits at the same time i.e. if a member has benefits in final salary (NPA 60 scheme) and career average arrangements (with an NPA of 67) and the member decides to retire at 58 this would result in the member taking their benefits from the final salary and career average arrangements at the same time.
    If a member is out of service, and they have reached their NPA in their NPA 60 or NPA 65 scheme they can elect to take their benefits from the final salary arrangements only and can defer taking their benefits from the career average scheme.
    However, please note: if a member takes their benefits early these will be actuarially reduced (approximately 5% per year before age 65 and 3% per year to their career average NPA – maximum period of 3 years). The actuarial reduction is because the member is claiming their benefits before their NPA.
  • GAry
    GAry Posts: 25
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    Yes tigerspill.

    We sent this FAQ and the wording from Factsheet no 4 page 3 (as discussed above with cobson) to NITPS and they replied, by citing the early retirement paragraph from Factsheet page 4 -
    "If you are a transition member and have service in the final salary and career average
    arrangements, you will have to take all your benefits (final salary and career average) at
    the same time and these will be actuarially reduced."

    It is strongly suspected that they have misinterpreted this paragraph and applied it to all situations and not solely the early retirement use case.

    Instead of debating this anomaly with them (for the 4th time), we have highlighted that my wife is actually a Taper/Partially protected member and not a Transition member as they stated, so this paragraph does not apply in her case.

    It looks like you will need to open a similar discussion with them regarding Transition members and taking NRA60/65 and CARE schemes separately.

    Good luck.

    I will report back when we receive the next reply.
  • GAry
    GAry Posts: 25
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    edited 25 November 2019 at 8:49PM
    cobson and tigerspill -

    Here is the NITPS legislation -

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/nisr/2014/310/pdfs/nisr_20140310_en.pdf

    UPDATED - Transition members -
    Schedule 3, Part 7, Chapter 2, para 29-
    "A transition member (P) who has not reached normal pension age under this scheme may
    apply under regulation 162 for payment of age retirement benefits in respect of P’s pensionable
    service under the existing scheme without applying for payment of P’s retirement benefits in
    respect of pensionable service under this scheme. "

    To me this suggests that Transition members can take both schemes separately.
  • cobson
    cobson Posts: 161
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    edited 25 November 2019 at 9:49PM
    GAry wrote: »
    However, they have also mis-classed my wife as a 'transition' member instead of a 'taper/partial protected' member, so this paragraph can't apply, so it will be interesting to see what they come back with this time.

    Confusingly, they sometimes use the term 'transition member' as a general term for any member who has both final salary and career average schemes, as well as the specific meaning of those who were more than 13.5 years from NRA at April 2012.
  • GAry
    GAry Posts: 25
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    After reading the legislation, I believe that the key difference between a taper/ partially protected member and a transition member is the date of transition. This might explain why they may not be precise with their use of the terminology.

    However, it still seems that members with both schemes can elect to take them separately if the first NRA date has been reached.

    I have a feeling that there will be further debate needed with the DoE NITPS department :mad:
  • GAry wrote: »
    cobson and tigerspill -

    Here is the NITPS legislation -

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/nisr/2014/310/pdfs/nisr_20140310_en.pdf

    UPDATED - Transition members -
    Schedule 3, Part 7, Chapter 2, para 29-
    "A transition member (P) who has not reached normal pension age under this scheme may
    apply under regulation 162 for payment of age retirement benefits in respect of P’s pensionable
    service under the existing scheme without applying for payment of P’s retirement benefits in
    respect of pensionable service under this scheme. "

    To me this suggests that Transition members can take both schemes separately.

    Thank you for the link - I will take a read.

    A tangental question - there seems to be much more info on the main GB TPS. Is the NITPS identical to the one in GB?
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