MSE News: Small supplier Bulb cuts energy tariff thanks to 'LOWER wholesale costs'

Renewable energy supplier Bulb will be reducing its variable dual fuel tariff by around 3% next week...
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'Small supplier Bulb cuts energy tariff thanks to 'LOWER wholesale costs''
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  • Maxwell007
    Maxwell007 Posts: 312 Forumite
    You’re currently paying about £710 a year on tonik.

    By switching to Bulb you’ll be paying around £746 a year.


    Your energy will cost £62 a month an increase of £3 a month.

  • Raxiel
    Raxiel Posts: 1,401 Forumite
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    edited 20 April 2017 at 10:04AM
    Maxwell007 wrote: »
    You’re currently paying about £710 a year on tonik.

    By switching to Bulb you’ll be paying around £746 a year.


    Your energy will cost £62 a month an increase of £3 a month.


    Is the Tonik tariff 100% renewable though? It doesn't seem all that bad for anyone who wants a green tariff.

    Edit: I see Tonik is 100% renewable on CEC, still not bad compared to the big 6
    3.6 kW PV in the Midlands - 9x Sharp 400W black panels - 6x facing SE and 3x facing SW, Solaredge Optimisers and Inverter. 400W Derril Water (one day). Octopus Flux
  • FullForce
    FullForce Posts: 177 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Anniversary Combo Breaker First Post
    edited 20 April 2017 at 11:31AM
    Maxwell007 wrote: »
    You’re currently paying about £710 a year on tonik.

    By switching to Bulb you’ll be paying around £746 a year.


    Your energy will cost £62 a month an increase of £3 a month.


    Are the new prices now being shown on the CEC?

    Because I have to currently look a very long way down to see Bulb.
    (Perhaps that's why they had to cut their extortionate prices?)

    e.g. according to CEC, in West Midlands supply region

    Tonik (Positive Energy v2)
    Unit rate: 12.800p per kWh
    Standing charge: 21.504p per day

    and £40 p.a discount if you need gas too

    Bulb (Vari-Fair)
    Unit rate: 13.268p per kWh
    Standing charge: 27.300p per day

    and £30 p.a discount if you need gas too
    (but + £100 pa if you get that gas via an IGT! :eek:)

    Edit:
    Or I can buy from Avro (Simple & Go)
    Unit Rate: 11.813p per kWh
    Standing Charge: 18.900p per day

    Avro do not say they are 100% renewable, but it's the same electricity you get through the same wires & meter, no matter who you buy from
  • Will_at_Bulb
    Will_at_Bulb Posts: 60 Organisation Representative
    Not yet FullForce. Our price change will go ahead from Monday, so you'll be able to see it then.
    Official Company Representative
    I am an official company representative of Bulb. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE
  • lstar337
    lstar337 Posts: 3,441 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post Combo Breaker
    FullForce wrote: »
    Avro do not say they are 100% renewable, but it's the same electricity you get through the same wires & meter, no matter who you buy from
    However, your money does go toward renewable sources.

    Not something that I care about, but a growing number of people do so it is worth mentioning.
  • jamesd
    jamesd Posts: 26,103 Forumite
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    edited 21 April 2017 at 7:15AM
    Will,

    Please let me know when Bulb will remove this claim from the web page:

    "with Bulb, you get 100% renewable electricity on one of the lowest tariffs out there"

    As I hope you are aware, Bulb has no control over the energy that is actually supplied to the customer and cannot ensure that it is 100% or even 1% renewable. Nor can the grid deliver that, except perhaps in locations on the other side of a DC link or other supply island, due to the fundamental nature of how electricity transmission works.

    I wonder, does Bulb have any customers in areas where most electrical power is provided by diesel generators, most likely on an island?

    Of course Bulb does know that the claim isn't really true because on the energy page Bulb says this instead:

    "When you switch to Bulb, we make sure that for every unit of electricity you use, a unit is produced and put on the grid by a pollution free renewable source"

    Of course, that's not true either. So far as I'm aware there are no pollution free renewable sources that Bulb can pay because they all have embodied pollution to some degree from the components involved in the production and getting the electricity to the grid connection point then transforming it to grid voltage. And Bulb also seems to recognise that because on the energy mix page the claim is changed again, this time to "We make sure that each unit of electricity supplied to our members is matched 100% with electricity generated from renewable sources".

    And that's finally close enough to the truth. So how about replacing the more prominent claims with that?
  • jamesd
    jamesd Posts: 26,103 Forumite
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    edited 21 April 2017 at 8:58AM
    Now, Bulb also makes this claim: "our 100% renewable electricity leads to zero carbon dioxide emissions and no radioactive waste".

    That's almost certainly between misleading and untrue, of course, so lets try getting a little closer to the truth with some questions:

    1. How much radioactive material is released by the suppliers Bulb pays to produce electricity?

    2. How much radioactive waste is produced indirectly by the suppliers Bulb pays to produce electricity?

    Neither of those questions is likely to have none as the correct answer.

    That's because burning material containing organic matter like wood or household refuse releases a range of radioactive materials onto the atmosphere, either directly or via things like burning methane from anaerobic digestion and Bulb says it pays biogen providers for 15% of the electricity produced in the most recent period. They are only not radioactive waste producers in the same sense that burning coal doesn't produce carbon dioxide waste because it releases it into the atmosphere instead. Dumping stuff into the atmosphere doesn't get rid of it even if a lawyer can claim that it doesn't meet some legal definition of whether it's nuclear waste or not. I hope that Bulb would agree that coal generators shouldn't be claiming to produce no carbon dioxide waste and that Bulb shouldn't be doing the equivalent with respect to its claims about nuclear emissions.

    The second question is closer to having none as the true answer but it's almost certain that in the equipment used to generate the electricity non-destructive testing will have used nuclear sources that do ultimately become nuclear waste. Most likely in turbines of hydro-electric sources, say.

    This post has mostly focused on electricity but given that ten percent of the gas purchased is not from fossil sources it appears that Bulb's sources are leading to higher levels of radioactive material release into the atmosphere than most providers. How do the Bulb-related emissions of radioactive materials compare with other UK gas suppliers?

    Anyone unfamiliar with the issues should realise that fossil gas has no radioactive carbon, for example, because it's all decayed between the time the material was buried and today. But more recently living things have sequestered undecayed radioactive carbon and other isotopes and release them into the atmosphere when burned. Much of that sequestered radioactive material was originally produced during atmospheric nuclear weapons tests and the effect of this is gradually decreasing as the isotopes decay, so eventually the new biologic sources will have release levels closer to those of fossil sources.

    Nobody should be worried by the discussion of radioactive material in this post. The levels involved are not generally significant on a small scale even though some of the radioactive carbon and other isotopes are absorbed into our bodies and stay there.
  • Will_at_Bulb
    Will_at_Bulb Posts: 60 Organisation Representative
    edited 21 April 2017 at 3:16PM
    Hi Jamesd,

    The short answer is that we have no plans to stop advertising ourselves as a "100% renewable electricity" supplier. We feel it is the most succinct and descriptive way of explaining what we do. And, as far as Ofgem, the ASA and the environment are concerned, it is perfectly accurate.

    We completely appreciate that it is more nuanced than those 3 words on their own. And we're very happy to go into more detail for everyone who is interested in learning more. But at the end of the day, your energy bills are still going to renewable generators rather than fossil fuel generators, thus changing the demand for each.

    The problem we have with replacing "100% renewable electricity" with the phrase you quoted is that, in marketing terms, it is a novel. It is very long and would have a very significant impact on our ability to complete our mission: to bring people over to green energy. Instead, the 3 words "100% renewable electricity" are much better.

    On your nuclear point, I would argue that we do not produce any nuclear waste at all, even in the insignificant proportions that you're discussing. It would, if anything, be nuclear neutral, in the same way that our green gas is carbon neutral. All the carbon-14 that is released by our gas is originally pulled from the atmosphere. Therefore, the net effect is zero. In fact you could even argue that by pulling it and storing it, we are having a net decrease effect, but we won't go down that rabbit hole.

    Also, while you accurately pointed out that fossil fuels contain no carbon-14 (with it's 5000 odd year half life, they've all decayed) there are other naturally-occurring radionuclides in fossil fuels. Fracking and coal in particular release amounts of uranium, thorium, radium and radon, and their decay products. These are not "nuclear neutral". In the same way that burning fossil fuels releases carbon that would have remained stored in the Earth's crust indefinitely, it also released these radionuclides that would have also remained stored. The net effect of burning fossil fuels is an increase of nuclear waste in the atmosphere.

    However, your last sentence sums it up neatly. It is insignificant. To the point where nobody considers it important relative to the waste from a nuclear power plant or the greenhouse emissions from a fossil fuel power plant.

    All the best,
    Will
    Official Company Representative
    I am an official company representative of Bulb. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE
  • jamesd
    jamesd Posts: 26,103 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Post First Anniversary
    edited 21 April 2017 at 3:51PM
    Will, is there a place where I can read past complaint decisions by Ofgem and the ASA on those points, without going and making a new complaint? That means in particular a past decision on the Bulb claim that "you get 100% renewable electricity". If there are no past decisions, I'm going to make those complaints myself, starting with the ASA.

    So far as the radioactive emissions go it should be clear that somebody considers them significant because I'm objecting to them and going to complain about the misleading advertising unless there have been past decisions in response to complaints already.

    It's true that there are releases of natural radioactive materials from fossil fuels, that's why a person living within fifty miles of a coal generation plant is expected to receive three times the radiation dose from the plant as one instead living within fifty miles of a nuclear plant. But my point was about all of the emissions, including the partly human-made radionuclides like carbon 14, not just natural ones.

    I appreciate that you will be inclined to argue it because your claims are pretty. But pretty isn't enough. They also have to be accurate and not misleading, and you must hold evidence to support them and they do not meet that standard. So if you'd like to get started on considering what will happen when I complain to the ASA on one of the points it will start something like this:

    'Bulb claims "you get 100% renewable electricity". Elsewhere they make conflicting statements indicating that this claim is not true and all they really do is buy renewable energy in an amount matching the amount supplied over the whole year. Please ask them to either produce the evidence to back up this claim that their customers get 100% renewable energy, as required, or to remove it and replace it with something true instead'

    Naturally I'll include more detail than that, and I will do the same to enumerate each of the individual points of complaint and ask them to require from Bulb the evidence that Bulb must have to support the claims on each point.

    This doesn't necessarily mean that Bulb is a bad supplier or can't come up with accurate and not misleading claims. But it does mean that today Bulb is telling its current and prospective customers that "you get 100% renewable electricity" and I'm not going to simply let Bulb continue to make that claim. Unless, that is, Ofgem and the ASA have ruled that the claim meets the required standards.
  • Will_at_Bulb
    Will_at_Bulb Posts: 60 Organisation Representative
    James, there have been no complaints handled by Ofgem that we are aware of, simply because we are using the same definition for "renewable supplier" that Ofgem use. If you are concerned by this, then please, by all means discuss it with them.
    Official Company Representative
    I am an official company representative of Bulb. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE
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