PIP MR request - Activity 9 - Clarification over case law
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What work do you do?
What difficulty with engaging face to face do you have (in addition to the points scored on the communication activity)?
What work adaptations have been made to help you to better engage face to face at work (per calcotti)?
How many days a week do you work?
Support worker, full time
I am anxious (though not recorded in medical records) in social situations, if I have people I feel "safe" with, I can do ok-ish but there is a fear that I am seen like an idiot because of my communication difficulties which means I withdraw when in social situations.
I have special equipment, specific meeting rooms and the line of work I do requires colleagues to be inclusive/supportive plus there are a few other reasonable adjustments made (breaks)0 -
@Demera you can look on the pipinfo.net for all up to date case law on PIP which includes legislation on all activities and any issues surrounding the benefit. It's accepted that engaging with others looks at your ability to interact with others in a contextually and socially appropriate manner, understand body language and establish relationships. It does not just look at people you know (HJ v sswp 2016 UKUT 0487 (AAC), it should be considered in terms of your daily life EG v Secretary of State for Work and Pensions [2017] UKUT 101 (AAC) and it should be done reliably (all the acceptable standard, in a reasonable time etc).
I'd say they would definitely look at your work interactions, so you need to look at what help you get, whether you'd be able to engage without this help, whether you get encouraged to engage with other people or you get more support. Look at all aspects when dealing with others if those you know well and don't and ask if you didn't have the help, would you be able to complete the activity without any difficulty.
I'm a little concerned that the OP is being pressured into providing personal details about themselves on a very public forum to get help. The OP has every right to withhold information, particularly as it's not a confidential setting. Demera has asked for some information on a case and the general rules for the activity, not a full advice session on their needs; it seems they're capable of searching and understanding case law themselves.0 -
@Demera you can look on the pipinfo.net for all up to date case law on PIP which includes legislation on all activities and any issues surrounding the benefit. It's accepted that engaging with others looks at your ability to interact with others in a contextually and socially appropriate manner, understand body language and establish relationships. It does not just look at people you know (HJ v sswp 2016 UKUT 0487 (AAC), it should be considered in terms of your daily life EG v Secretary of State for Work and Pensions [2017] UKUT 101 (AAC) and it should be done reliably (all the acceptable standard, in a reasonable time etc).
I'd say they would definitely look at your work interactions, so you need to look at what help you get, whether you'd be able to engage without this help, whether you get encouraged to engage with other people or you get more support. Look at all aspects when dealing with others if those you know well and don't and ask if you didn't have the help, would you be able to complete the activity without any difficulty.
I'm a little concerned that the OP is being pressured into providing personal details about themselves on a very public forum to get help. The OP has every right to withhold information, particularly as it's not a confidential setting. Demera has asked for some information on a case and the general rules for the activity, not a full advice session on their needs; it seems they're capable of searching and understanding case law themselves.
Thank you so much csmk for the guidance and your empathy around my position, much appreciated.
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Hope it helps! Sorry kept getting your username wrong (I'm definitely thinking of getting a sugary lunch today!)0
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Update
Finally got a response but as to be expected, they maintained their original decision.
What is infuriating is that their decision was just a rewording of the original decision letter. They did not address any of the points or evidence I offered or points that I contested.
Anyway, if anyone can clarify the following, I would be extremely grateful. Regarding Activity 9, engaging with others face to face, am I misguided to think that descriptors 9a, 9b and 9c do NOT have to be related to mental health?0 -
...am I misguided to think that descriptors 9a, 9b and 9c do NOT have to be related to mental health?
I don’t think these descriptors have to be related to mental health. See for example CPIP/3707/2016 which looks at the relevance of the difficulty understanding body language and other visual cues when assessing whether a claimant with severe visual impairment can engage socially.
Also CPIP/2559/2015 paragraph 17 “There is, in my judgment, no limit to the type of impairment which limits a person’s ability to engage with other people face to face” which goes on to paragraph 18 “Thus, for example, activity 9 may fall to be considered in respect of a claimant whose physical impairment (hearing loss) causes communication difficulties, and who is, as a result, anxious about meeting other people and being in social situations”.
You may find useful information picking through this https://pipinfo.net/activities/engaging-with-other-people-face-to-faceInformation I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Some rules may be different in other parts of UK.0 -
That's usually what happens with the MR decision, it's a copy and paste of the original decision.Update
Finally got a response but as to be expected, they maintained their original decision.
What is infuriating is that their decision was just a rewording of the original decision letter. They did not address any of the points or evidence I offered or points that I contested.
Anyway, if anyone can clarify the following, I would be extremely grateful. Regarding Activity 9, engaging with others face to face, am I misguided to think that descriptors 9a, 9b and 9c do NOT have to be related to mental health?
No, engaging with others isn't just related to mental health. It's totally depends on how your conditions affect your ability to carry out daily activity based on the PIP descriptors.
My daughter has ASD and a learning disability, needs support when engaging with others and scored 2 points for this activity.
As your job is a support worker, this may well have gone against you.0 -
poppy12345 wrote: »As your job is a support worker, this may well have gone against you.
I agree - as a layman without any specific knowledge of your job, I would assume that a support worker would be trained in giving other people social support and would therefore need to know themselves how to interact appropriately with others before they can then give help to anyone else.
I am NOT saying that is definitely the case (and please do feel free to correct me, but also please don't feel obliged to it you'd prefer not to), but it could be what the DWP assumed and why they made the decision they did. So if you do give social support, you'd have to detail exactly what you do, why you can do that and then why that doesn't mean you don't have difficulty in your own social situations. If you don't give social support in your line of work, make sure that's very clear.
(I have seen something referred to as 'the mum-friend override': in a restaurant you're too anxious to make a small request such as for extra seasoning, but have no problem complaining on your friend's behalf if their food is awful and they're too anxious to do it themselves. Basically like parents who are afraid of an activity will put their fears aside if their child needs support to do it.)0 -
calcotti, poppy12345 and Spoonie Turtle, thanks so much for your replies and clarifications.
I felt I explained in my MR request how work is in a "controlled" environment, I only work with a small group of people, the same people over and over again and the scope of my work is rather narrow. I work in an office environment which means that i can use assistive devices but that this is not the case in a normal environment - where there is a lot of background noise, people talking over each other etc. Also, in an office environment where people have no choice as to engaging with me due to the nature of my role, that does NOT mean I am engaging in any way, as the definition clearly says "social situations" and I believe there is case law to say that engaging is not a mere exchange of words but building of relationships. I have explained that in the years I have worked, I have only made two friends, one of whom I lost because I kept finding excuses not to socialise and other examples how difficult it is for me to establish relationships, yet this evidence has also been ignored.
I have gone through the appeal form and find it absolutely ridiculous that I have to go through the process putting forward the very SAME arguments.0
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