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Main site > Forums > Work & Benefits > Redundancy & Redundancy Planning > Unfair Dismissal Tribunal
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      EKEA
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    • By EKEA 6th Jul 17, 11:44 AM
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      What's this?

    EKEA
    Unfair Dismissal Tribunal
    • #1
    • 6th Jul 17, 11:44 AM
    Unfair Dismissal Tribunal 6th Jul 17 at 11:44 AM
    Here is the short of the story:

    I got the sack for gross misconduct.

    It involves a sum of money that it is alleged I stole.

    There was no cctv or witnesses so the case had to go on probability.

    The company decided there was enough evidence to go through and dismiss me.

    The company did not provide documents I requested at the hearing.

    They also invited me to call witnesses for my defence but then they decided the witnesses "were not relevant".

    There was one statement from a manager who supposedly saw the cctv and said they saw me take money but the cctv was then overwritten by more coverage of the following day.

    I am not in a union.

    During the investigation, the investigatory officer is heard (on a covert recording made unbeknown to me by my colleague) saying "i wanted them to crack".

    During the hearing, the hearing officer said they could not include anything to do with cctv as there was none. The meeting focused on other points and no further conversation about the statement of cctv happened.

    I have been through their appeals procedure.

    During the appeal, the appeals officer said the statement of the cctv viewing would be included. This was surprising and I now believe I have been mis-led, or they're trying it on as they know they don't have anything else to go on; in addition, perhaps they feel like they're too far down the road to turn back.

    I have telephoned ACAS who have started their part of this process. Although the gentleman who I spoke to was very accusing and sounded like this case was wasting his time and a judge would see it the same way.

    Is it correct I have 3 months from when ACAS get involved for a tribunal?

    The ACAS man asked what I wanted, meaning financial compensation. I have no idea what value to put on all this. It's caused a lot of problems with my wife.

    I am in a job now, but it pays around £9,000 less a year. (I now get below £20,000 pa). I'm not sure how long it would take me to get a job that would pay near equal.

    I have read on one website I could be looking at £8,000 or something similar as this is the value of money from the time I was out of work to being back in work.

    I have read on another website that the company could have to make up my pay to the value it was until I find a job that would be near equal pay to my earnings before.

    The company will likely try to settle out of court, but unlikely through ACAS.

    I don't have loads of money so looking at no win-no-fee lawyers as the only "free consultation" lawyer near me will accept people from certain postcodes only - mine isn't in that bracket.

    Advice would be greatly appreciated.

    Sorry!

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      Guest101
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    • By Guest101 6th Jul 17, 11:57 AM
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      What's this?

    Guest101
    • #2
    • 6th Jul 17, 11:57 AM
    • #2
    • 6th Jul 17, 11:57 AM
    How long had you worked there?

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      TadleyBaggie
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    • By TadleyBaggie 6th Jul 17, 2:20 PM
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      What's this?

    TadleyBaggie
    • #3
    • 6th Jul 17, 2:20 PM
    • #3
    • 6th Jul 17, 2:20 PM
    In your post you never actually said you didn't take the money...

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      sangie595
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    • By sangie595 6th Jul 17, 9:57 PM
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      What's this?

    sangie595
    • #4
    • 6th Jul 17, 9:57 PM
    • #4
    • 6th Jul 17, 9:57 PM
    “
    Here is the short of the story: It's quite a long short story! I don't like short stories, however. They tend to miss out facts. What is the rest of the story?

    I got the sack for gross misconduct.

    It involves a sum of money that it is alleged I stole.

    There was no cctv or witnesses so the case had to go on probability.There was a witness - someone saw the CCTV. So how was there no witness?

    The company decided there was enough evidence to go through and dismiss me.That's their prerogative. They have to defend that position if it goes to tribunal, but they are allowed to do this.

    The company did not provide documents I requested at the hearing. No idea what this means

    They also invited me to call witnesses for my defence but then they decided the witnesses "were not relevant". And that may be the case. Why did they say they were not relevant? What were the witnesses going to say?

    There was one statement from a manager who supposedly saw the cctv and said they saw me take money but the cctv was then overwritten by more coverage of the following day.Why would they lie about this?

    I am not in a union.Bad decision that was, wasn't it?

    During the investigation, the investigatory officer is heard (on a covert recording made unbeknown to me by my colleague of course you didn't know.) saying "i wanted them to crack". So what? And I hope your colleague has their belongings conveniently parcelled up for when they are escorted from the premises and dismissed themselves.

    During the hearing, the hearing officer said they could not include anything to do with cctv as there was none. The meeting focused on other points and no further conversation about the statement of cctv happened.What other points?

    I have been through their appeals procedure. Uh huh. And?

    During the appeal, the appeals officer said the statement of the cctv viewing would be included. This was surprising and I now believe I have been mis-led, or they're trying it on as they know they don't have anything else to go on; in addition, perhaps they feel like they're too far down the road to turn back.I don't deal with guesses.

    I have telephoned ACAS who have started their part of this process. Although the gentleman who I spoke to was very accusing and sounded like this case was wasting his time and a judge would see it the same way. Well most ACAS front line call centre staff wouldn't know the time of day with a watch. This means nothing. Besides which - it's another of your guesses. Guessing is not stock for trading.

    Is it correct I have 3 months from when ACAS get involved for a tribunal? No. You have three months less a day from the date of the dismissal, but formal ACAS involvement stops that clock.

    The ACAS man asked what I wanted, meaning financial compensation. I have no idea what value to put on all this. It's caused a lot of problems with my wife. I am absolutely certain that there is no compensation for trouble with your wife.

    I am in a job now, but it pays around £9,000 less a year. (I now get below £20,000 pa). I'm not sure how long it would take me to get a job that would pay near equal.

    I have read on one website I could be looking at £8,000 or something similar as this is the value of money from the time I was out of work to being back in work. That's really simplistic. But since you have actually told us almost nothing, we can't make a good guess.

    I have read on another website that the company could have to make up my pay to the value it was until I find a job that would be near equal pay to my earnings before. Maybe. See last comment.

    The company will likely try to settle out of court, but unlikely through ACAS. Why would you think that?

    I don't have loads of money so looking at no win-no-fee lawyers as the only "free consultation" lawyer near me will accept people from certain postcodes only - mine isn't in that bracket.

    Advice would be greatly appreciated.
    Originally posted by EKEA ”

    “
    In your post you never actually said you didn't take the money...
    Originally posted by TadleyBaggie ”
    Quite a big omission...


    OP - we have no real idea of what happened here, but there's a really simple question - why would they think you stole this money if you didn't? It's a big leap from having no evidence at all to saying you stole the money. At the very least, someone hates you enough to stitch you up. So what is the rest of the story. Because there is one.

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      Undervalued
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    • By Undervalued 7th Jul 17, 12:37 PM
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      What's this?

    Undervalued
    • #5
    • 7th Jul 17, 12:37 PM
    • #5
    • 7th Jul 17, 12:37 PM
    “

    The company decided there was enough evidence to go through and dismiss me.
    Originally posted by EKEA ”
    To dismiss you fairly (in law) the company only needs a reasonable belief that the alleged misconduct took place. That is a long way short of the criminal standard of proof (beyond a reasonable doubt).

    Also, even if it is subsequently proved that they were wrong, the dismissal could still be fair providing it was reasonable for them to have held that belief at the time. There is case law to support this.

    They need to have conducted a fair process. The easiest way to do this is to follow the ACAS guidelines but an alternative could also be fair. There are no longer statutory procedures so minor technical failures may not make the process unfair.

    So, you need to concentrate on whether or not they conducted a sufficiently fair process to form a reasonable belief that you stole the money. Nothing else matters.

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    • By EKEA 10th Jul 17, 1:09 PM
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      What's this?

    EKEA
    • #6
    • 10th Jul 17, 1:09 PM
    • #6
    • 10th Jul 17, 1:09 PM
    “
    How long had you worked there?
    Originally posted by Guest101 ”
    I have worked there for 10 years.

    Sad to see some are already jumping to the conclusion I took the money. I didn't take the money.

    I meant there was no witnesses to the act because it didn't happen. However because the money is missing from the till, it has been assumed I must have stolen it.

    At the disciplinary hearing, I would have asked the witnesses some questions leading to whether they think I would have stole the money or not so more character based i suppose.

    The manager lied because they are also involved with the union and i'd go as far as saying they hate anyone not being involved with the union. So it seems to be a bit of payback for me not joining. Strange how this came to light right at the end of the process instead of during the investigatory part.

    The reason I am being sketchy is in case someone I know is able to join the dots and guess it's me. I'd rather be a little more covert than to blurt the whole details here.

    I am just looking for advice on what compensation I should be looking at - irrespective of the whole back story.

    Thank you undervalued. Their process seems okay from their end but it's difficult to prove innocence when they are automatically thinking you are guilty from the off.

    Sorry!

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    • By Undervalued 10th Jul 17, 1:39 PM
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      What's this?

    Undervalued
    • #7
    • 10th Jul 17, 1:39 PM
    • #7
    • 10th Jul 17, 1:39 PM
    “
    Thank you undervalued. Their process seems okay from their end but it's difficult to prove innocence when they are automatically thinking you are guilty from the off.
    Originally posted by EKEA ”
    As I mentioned, what you have got to try and assess is whether it is reasonable for them to believe you took the money. I appreciate that is difficult when you know you didn't but, as I said, this is not the same as a criminal case with innocence or guilt.

    If it is not reasonable then you may have a valid unfair dismissal claim. If however it is reasonable (regardless of the fact you didn't do it) then I'm afraid you don't

    I'm too out of touch to give you an idea of likely compensation should you win. As a general point the vast majority of tribunal awards are a great deal less than the odd headline grabbing case. I think the average is about £6K.

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    • By BJV 10th Jul 17, 1:52 PM
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      What's this?

    BJV
    • #8
    • 10th Jul 17, 1:52 PM
    • #8
    • 10th Jul 17, 1:52 PM
    OP I feel so sorry for you. A long time ooh 20 years ago I was dismissed for something that I had not done. My then managers all stuck together and after years of loyal service I was dismissed. In the end all I got was a letter saying sorry. ( I had got another job almost straight away so no loss of earnings. )

    I feel so sorry because I know what it is like to be accused of something you have not done. It is horrible and even those around you start to doubt. When enough people say you did "X" when in fact you did "Y".

    For what it is worth for me it was not the money I wanted more I wanted them to say sorry and admit that they where wrong.

    I genuinely wish you luck and sincerely hope that you manage to sort this out.

    Good Luck.
    Happiness, Health and Wealth in that order please!

    Sorry!

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      Guest101
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    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 10th Jul 17, 2:04 PM
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      What's this?

    Guest101
    • #9
    • 10th Jul 17, 2:04 PM
    • #9
    • 10th Jul 17, 2:04 PM
    “
    I have worked there for 10 years.

    Sad to see some are already jumping to the conclusion I took the money. I didn't take the money.

    I meant there was no witnesses to the act because it didn't happen. However because the money is missing from the till, it has been assumed I must have stolen it. - well you didn't say you hadn't to be fair

    At the disciplinary hearing, I would have asked the witnesses some questions leading to whether they think I would have stole the money or not so more character based i suppose. - Oh right, that's not relevant.

    The manager lied because they are also involved with the union and i'd go as far as saying they hate anyone not being involved with the union. So it seems to be a bit of payback for me not joining. Strange how this came to light right at the end of the process instead of during the investigatory part. - Which union? There's lots of them

    The reason I am being sketchy is in case someone I know is able to join the dots and guess it's me. I'd rather be a little more covert than to blurt the whole details here.

    I am just looking for advice on what compensation I should be looking at - irrespective of the whole back story. - Not a lot.

    Thank you undervalued. Their process seems okay from their end but it's difficult to prove innocence when they are automatically thinking you are guilty from the off.
    Originally posted by EKEA ”


    It's not innocent or guilty, it's: did they follow the correct process

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      sangie595
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    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 10th Jul 17, 2:27 PM
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      What's this?

    sangie595
    “
    I have worked there for 10 years.

    Sad to see some are already jumping to the conclusion I took the money. I didn't take the money. It's a shame that you think that because there was no jumping to conclusions. There were certainly questions because (a) it was relevant and (b) people normally scream it from the rooftops when they are innocent of something. But you are assuming that we were jumping to conclusions, or, in fact, that if we thought you were guilty that would have made a difference to the advice. It wouldn't, because we weren't. We didn't know. Shame you didn't tell us whilst you were jumping to conclusions???

    I meant there was no witnesses to the act because it didn't happen. However because the money is missing from the till, it has been assumed I must have stolen it. And that may be "ok" - employment law does not require them to have such evidence. They only have to have a reasonable belief - which is what you have already been told. As I said to you, it is up to them to justify that to a tribunal. But the fact they have no evidence as such does not help your case either, because that criminal standard of evidence isn't used.

    At the disciplinary hearing, I would have asked the witnesses some questions leading to whether they think I would have stole the money or not so more character based i suppose. That wouldn't be evidence. Character witnesses are not relevant. And neither does it mean that someone of good character doesn't steal - it happens.

    The manager lied because they are also involved with the union and i'd go as far as saying they hate anyone not being involved with the union. So it seems to be a bit of payback for me not joining. Strange how this came to light right at the end of the process instead of during the investigatory part. I was under the impression from your first comments that you didn't like people making assumptions and jumping to conclusions. Which is all you are doing here. Why on earth would a manager fit you up for a theft simply because you didn't join the union. That is an outrageous claim without any evidence at all. Pretty much like you are claiming he is making about your being involved in the theft, isn't it?

    The reason I am being sketchy is in case someone I know is able to join the dots and guess it's me. I'd rather be a little more covert than to blurt the whole details here. At this stage I can't see how being identified would make any difference, on the off chance that someone might be reading it. There's enough detail already to identify you if someone really wanted to. The truth is, nothing that could be said here would be of any help to them unless you admitted stealing the money.

    I am just looking for advice on what compensation I should be looking at - irrespective of the whole back story. You aren't listening - there isn't an "irrespective of". The back story is part of the way in which they will consider any possible compensation. If you can't provide details, then nobody can help you.

    Thank you undervalued. Their process seems okay from their end but it's difficult to prove innocence when they are automatically thinking you are guilty from the off.
    Originally posted by EKEA ”

    It is really rude when people have the courtesy to try to help you and ask you questions that will help them do so, but you then go on to make assumptions about them and ignore the questions - and then go on to thank ONLY one person because you think that only their input had any value. You don't always get what you want, and you certainly don't get anything if you won't help people to help you.

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    • By Cygnus Alpha 15th Jul 17, 7:27 PM
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      What's this?

    Cygnus Alpha
    From my experience, when the ACAS man asks what remedy you want, they are not asking for a monetary sum. They just want to know whether you would like your old job back or compensation for loss of earnings.

    In the first instance, the ACAS rep is there to bring the two sides together - not haggle with you over amounts.

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    • By Bamber19 16th Jul 17, 5:15 PM
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      What's this?

    Bamber19
    “
    It is really rude when people have the courtesy to try to help you and ask you questions that will help them do so, but you then go on to make assumptions about them and ignore the questions - and then go on to thank ONLY one person because you think that only their input had any value. You don't always get what you want, and you certainly don't get anything if you won't help people to help you.
    Originally posted by sangie595 ”
    With respect, revisit the tone of your comments on your first response, you could have asked the same relevant questions without the facetious and snarky comments. If you want to help someone there is absolutely no need to ensure you have a dig at them at the same time.
    Bought, not Brought

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    • By sangie595 16th Jul 17, 7:45 PM
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      What's this?

    sangie595
    “
    With respect, revisit the tone of your comments on your first response, you could have asked the same relevant questions without the facetious and snarky comments. If you want to help someone there is absolutely no need to ensure you have a dig at them at the same time.
    Originally posted by Bamber19 ”
    With respect, if you have something to contribute to the subject, then do so. If not, then how I post is my business, not yours. If the OP does not want to tell the whole story, and if they omit significant facts, then they cannot then expect to get accurate advice.

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    • By Bamber19 16th Jul 17, 9:45 PM
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      What's this?

    Bamber19
    “
    With respect, if you have something to contribute to the subject, then do so. If not, then how I post is my business, not yours. If the OP does not want to tell the whole story, and if they omit significant facts, then they cannot then expect to get accurate advice.
    Originally posted by sangie595 ”
    They can expect replies to be courteous however. It was meant as genuine constructive feedback, you seemed annoyed that you didn't get the thanks you thought you deserved but as an outside reader it was pretty obvious why that was.
    Bought, not Brought

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    • By Az1971 26th Aug 17, 4:04 PM
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      What's this?

    Az1971
    Tribunal Award for Unfair Dismissal still not paid
    Hi there

    This is my first post and I'm seeking advice on the non payment of the Tribunal Award for unfair dismissal.

    My employer, Zenith Staybrite Ltd & Entu Plc, have held up paying the money which was awarded on June 23rd 2017.

    They asked the judge if the Tribunal fee they were ordered to pay me be deducted as since then the Supreme Court has ruled that I can, when available apply for a refund. The Tribunal has taken around 8 weeks and counting to answer this simple question and since then Entu Plc (held as second respondents in the event Zenith Staybrite doesn't pay) has since advised of their intention to go into administration. Entu Plc are the holding company of Zenith Staybrite among others, and there hasn't been any announcement re Zenith Staybrite the first respondents.

    My questions are:

    How likely is it that I will get my Award now?

    If the assets are sold, are they required to pay ?

    Is the new owner liable?

    My solicitor, who's on holiday, submitted a judgement order stating the intention to apply winding up on both companies if payment isn't received.

    Any advice would be very welcome

    Thanks in advance

    Sorry!

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    • By sangie595 26th Aug 17, 5:20 PM
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      What's this?

    sangie595
    Unfortunately, this isn't going to be easy. Some aspects of the awards can be picked up by the Redundancy Payments Service - but only after you have exhausted attempts to reclaim the money from the employer. Which itself will cost you money. And it may require a further order from the tribunal. You are, at this stage, only creditor. In insolvency you get no preferential treatment, and if you get anything it will probably be a fraction of the debt owed. Any existing employees will get preferential treatment and paid before other creditors.

    It is unlikely that the new owner, if there is one, would agree to a purchase if they are liable for part debts, so no, it is not likely they would pay you.

    Who did your solicitor think was going to pay the fees to apply to wind up the companies? It is not cheap, and if you apply you will pay those costs. That would actually be doing them a favor - if you pay to instigate winding up the company you won't get the money they owe you, but you pay for them to enter insovency!

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    • By Az1971 27th Aug 17, 10:20 PM
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      What's this?

    Az1971
    Thank you.

    My insurance company are supporting claim so hopefully they will fund any continuing fees etc

    The first respondents are not in administration so presumably the debt is with them and the holding company only come into play if they don't pay?? If they are hoping to continue trading, the first respondents, it will be advisable to pay...?

    If they don't, I will apply for winding up both companies as the bailiff can commence collecting. If they're unsuccessful I was under the impression that a tribunal judgement is classified as preferred creditors along with HMRC and is secured on assets as otherwise bailiffs would not have the right to collect assets etc??

    Sorry!

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    • By sangie595 28th Aug 17, 9:11 AM
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      What's this?

    sangie595
    I don't think so. My understanding, and what has always been the case in any tribunal findings I've been involved with (most of my employers wouldn't be insolvent ever) is that it is only existing employees and former employees where the case involves a failure to consult (redundancy) which are preferential debts. HMRC are not preferential creditors either. Others are unsecured, and very low on the priorities, and HMRC is one of these. I think you may be operating from some old law - the used to be once upon a time, but haven't been since 2003.

    The liquidators for the holding company will take control of the subsidiary. If the subsidiary can be sold to realise assets, then it may be. But equally, it may then follow into liquidation. So it is not quite as simple as you think in terms of the payment of the debt. If they holding company have operated as many do, they have already extracted all assets from the subsidiary.

    And your insurance company may be unwilling to proceed to a winding up order if there is little prospect of them ever seeing their money back. The costs are between £400 and £800 to issue a claim, plus a filing fee of £280, and £1,600 court fees. That's before your solicitors costs. That is a lot of money to pay out to put a company in a position where it is unlikely to be able to pay out anything! So unless this subsidiary is worth a lot of money, then they may cut their losses now. Legal action is always based on the probability of a successful outcome, and the probability here is low.

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    • By Az1971 29th Aug 17, 8:26 PM
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      What's this?

    Az1971
    Thank you very much.

    Really appreciate your advice

    Regards

    Sorry!

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    • By sangie595 30th Aug 17, 8:37 AM
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      What's this?

    sangie595
    “
    Thank you very much.

    Really appreciate your advice

    Regards
    Originally posted by Az1971 ”
    Your are welcome. Sorry it wasn't more positive, but in my experience, once the award is uncollected there is a rapidly diminishing chance of seeing the money. You have some advantage in that you have a tribunal award, so the RPS may pay something, but you'd have to decide how far to go to get that. It is far too easy for employers to get away with not paying up.

    Sorry!

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