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Parking Ticket - Overstayed 6mins

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  • presc
    presc Posts: 45 Forumite
    Ok, I will stick to this thread, not a problem, and yes, the claim form came from Northampton.

    Thanks for the link. This one works fine.

    I didn't fill in the online application yet, because there's a few things I wanted to figure out first:
    First thing is quite complicated - the claim is not personally for me, but rather for my mother. Her English is not that great, so I usually type stuff for her in the thread - I didn't mention it before because it didn't feel relevant (here or for the case) and for simplicity.

    My partner had a similar parking ticket situation, and she recommended the forum to me. Her case didn't go further than a couple of debt collectors letters, so I hoped for the same here. Seeing the claim makes it quite more complicated - if it eventually does go to the court, my mother won't be able to defend herself, unless with a translator - but even then I have a feeling that a lot of things may get lost in translation. I was wondering that if I would be able to act on her behalf at the court (if the case went that far)?

    As well as that, I also wondered if this changes anything in filing in the application, specially the parts about:
    "Statement of Truth" - should I selected "I am a Litigation Friend" instead of "I am the defendant"?
    Should I select "Contest Jurisdiction"? My mother is a resident in UK, so I'm still not sure if that box is relevant.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,396 Forumite
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    if it eventually does go to the court, my mother won't be able to defend herself, unless with a translator...I was wondering that if I would be able to act on her behalf at the court (if the case went that far)?
    Yes you can act as Lay Rep unless the Judge is as awful as the two at Wigan and Liverpool this week (rare). You can find examples of threads here by Lay Reps, e.g. search for and read Gin and Milk's thread. She acted as Lay Rep for her husband and won (Defendant MUST attend court with the Lay Rep!).

    should I selected "I am a Litigation Friend" instead of "I am the defendant"?
    Eeeek NONONO! It does not go in your name! I hope your acknowledged in HER name?! If not then that's not a properly filed AOS.

    Should I select "Contest Jurisdiction"?
    Surely that is answered in the AOS guide and in bargepole's post about how to fill the forms in (one of the links in the NEWBIES thread post #2 about what happens when). NEVER contest jurisdiction unless the defendant lives outside England/Wales.

    OK, so at least you aren't doing this in your name now. Someone lost on pepipoo recently despite a decent defence, after making that rookie error and putting his name on the defence as the defendant was disabled and he was her carer. Felt sorry for them but (common sense) think about it, the Defendant is the person to sign a defence, no third party can do that, it's a legal form, you can't put your name on it instead.
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  • presc
    presc Posts: 45 Forumite
    Thanks for the info. It's good to know that if it comes to it, I can represent my mother in the court.

    No worries, I didn't acknowledge in my name.

    Sure, that makes sense. I was just making sure.

    I've sent the AOS. I will start digging in into the defense threads and will post a draft here, once I have something figured. Many thanks!
  • presc
    presc Posts: 45 Forumite
    Hi, I have managed to put a first draft of the defence together. I looked around the forums, and stuck together bits from other defence letters that seemed like could work with my own case. I also added bits for my case particularly.

    To make it easier to go through, I placed some of my comments/questions in blue throughout the letter.

    I know it’s Easter and people have better things to do, but any help would be greatly appreciated.

    Statement of Defence

    I am XXXXX, defendant in this matter and deny liability for the entirety of the claim for the following reasons:

    1. It is admitted that the Defendant was the authorised registered keeper of the vehicle in question at the time of the alleged incident.

    2. The identity of the driver of the vehicle on the date in question has not been ascertained.
    a) The Claimant did not identify the driver.
    b) The Defendant has no liability, as they are the Keeper of the vehicle and the Claimant must rely upon the strict provisions of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 in order to hold the defendant responsible for the driver’s alleged breach.

    3. The full details of the contract which it is alleged was broken have not been provided.
    a) The Claimant has disclosed no cause of action to give rise to any debt.
    b) The Claimant has stated that a parking charge was incurred.

    The claim simply states: “The driver of the vehicle registration XXXXX incurred the parking charge(s) on XXX for breaching the terms of parking on the land at XXXXX.”

    The claimant fails to comply with International Parking Community Code of Practice regarding the grace periods:
    “15.1 Drivers should be allowed a sufficient amount of time to park and read any signs so the may make an informed decision as to whether or not to remain on the site.
    15.2 Drivers should be allowed a sufficient amount of time to leave a site after a pre-paid or permitted period of parking has expired.”

    Parking Charge Notice was issued 6mins after the pre-paid ticket has expired, a time which can be believed as not unreasonable to read the signs and/or to make a decision whether to purchase another parking ticket or leave the area.

    Signage on the land does not state that Grace Periods do not comply on the particular parking area at XXXXX [image of signage on the parking].

    What’s interesting, is that the first notice to keep has “Reason of Issue: Exceeded maximum allocated or pre-paid time”, whereas the claim itself has generic “driver has incurred the parking charge(s)” formula. Not sure if they have to state the “reason” on the claim if it was previously stated on NTK, but I would imagine this could somehow support the idea of “robo-claim” on the Gladstones side.

    Also, not sure if mentioning the Grace Periods makes much sense, when the claim just generalizes the charges, not mentioning the reason.

    4. The defendant wrote to the claimant on xxxxx asking for:
    i) Full particulars of the parking charges
    ii) Who the party was that contracted with ES Parking.
    Iii) The full legal identity of the landowner
    iv) A full copy of the contract with the landholder that demonstrated that ES Parking had their authority.
    v) If the charges were based on damages for breach of contract and if so to provide justification of this sum
    vi) If the charge was based on a contractually agreed sum for the provision of parking and If so to provide a valid VAT invoice for this 'service'.
    vii) To provide a copy of the signs that ES Parking can evidence were on site and which contended formed a contract with the driver on that occasion, as well as all photographs taken of the vehicle in question.

    The claimant has not responded. Withholding any relevant photos of the car, particularly the windscreen and dashboard, and the signage terms, despite being asked for by the Defendant at the outset, is against the SRA code as well as contrary to the ‘overriding objective’ in the pre action protocol. As Gladstones are a firm of solicitors whose Directors also run the IPC Trade Body and deal with private parking issues every single day of the week there can be no excuse for these omissions.

    I actually written to them twice: once right after seeing the ticket on the window, and second time when I got NTK.

    I would be tempted (not sure if correctly though) to point out that the first letter I’ve sent was tracked and they never received it, as to proof they neglect it on purpose. The second time I’ve sent them a letter, it was not tracked but I do have a proof of postage. I would try to point out that “what are the chances of Royal Mail failing to deliver a letter twice”, but it does seem like a little bit weak defence?

    Further to that, my partner also had a similar problem and she also had written to them with no response. Not sure if that bears any importance (probably none), but I have seen people quoting other cases in their defenses.


    5. The Claimant’s solicitors are known to be a serial issuer of generic claims similar to this one, with no due diligence, no scrutiny of details nor even checking for a true cause of action.
    HMCS have identified over 1000 similar poorly produced claims and the solicitor's conduct in many of these cases is believed to be currently the subject of an active investigation by the SRA. I believe the term for such conduct is ‘robo-claims’ which is against the public interest, demonstrates a disregard for the dignity of the court and is unfair on unrepresented consumers. I have reason to believe that this is a claim that will proceed without any facts or evidence supplied until the last possible minute, to my significant detriment as an unrepresented Defendant.

    I suggest that parking companies using the small claims track as a form of aggressive, automated debt collection is not something the courts should be seen to support.

    6. ES Parking Enforcements are not the lawful occupier of the land. I have the reasonable belief that they do not have the authority to issue charges on this land in their own name and that they have no rights to bring this case.
    a) The Claimant is not the landowner and is merely an agent acting on behalf of the landowner and has failed to demonstrate their legal standing to form a contract.
    b) The claimant is not the landowner and suffers no loss whatsoever as a result of a vehicle parking at the location in question
    c) The Claimant is put to proof that it has sufficient interest in the land or that there are specific terms in its contract to bring an action on its own behalf. As a third party agent, the Claimant may not pursue any charge. I have the reasonable belief that they do not have the authority to issue charges on this land in their own name and that they have no right to bring action regarding this claim.

    7. The Claimant has sent threatening and misleading demands which stated that further debt recovery action would be taken to recover what is owed by passing the debt to a ‘local’ recovery agent (which suggested to the Defendant they would be calling round like bailiffs) adding further unexplained charges of £25 to the original £100 with no evidence of how this extra charge has been calculated. No figure for additional charges was 'agreed' nor could it have formed part of the alleged 'contract' because no such indemnity costs were quantified on the signs. Terms cannot be bolted on later with figures plucked out of thin air, as if they were
    incorporated into the small print when they were not. This appears to be an added cost with no apparently no qualification and an attempt at double recovery, which the POFA Schedule 4 specifically disallows.
    b) The Defendant also disputes that the Claimant has incurred £50 solicitor costs.
    c) The Defendant has the reasonable belief that the Claimant has not incurred £50 costs to pursue an alleged £100 debt.
    d) Notwithstanding the Defendant's belief, the costs are in any case not recoverable.
    e) The Claimant described the charge of £50.00 "legal fees" not "contractual costs".
    CPR 27.14 does not permit these to be recovered in the Small Claims Court.

    The Protection of Freedom Act Para 4(5) states that the maximum sum that may be recovered from the keeper is the charge stated on the Notice to Keeper.


    Note: writing this up, and going through all the paperwork, I think I may have messed this up big time - I totally missed to respond to their “Letter before claim” from the Gladstones, which mentioned that I had 2 weeks to acknowledge and reply to them. Not sure how big of an impact it’s going to have now.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,396 Forumite
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    You don't have to respond to a LBC, your mother was worried and just missed the chance and the claim arrived before she could respond. and yes, she should state that she replied twice to the unwarranted charge letters during 2016. She can rely upon the Interpretations Act which deems that a letter put in the post 1st class is deemed delivered two working days later unless proved to the contrary (and you have proof of posting).

    So definitely mention the appeals made in good faith, which were completely ignored.

    This should be expanded:
    Parking Charge Notice was issued 6mins after the pre-paid ticket has expired, a time which [STRIKE]can be believed as [/STRIKE] is not unreasonable [STRIKE]to read the signs and/or to make a decision whether to purchase another parking ticket or leave the area.[/STRIKE] This is supported by the fact that a minimum grace period of at least ten minutes after expiry of paid-for time was introduced as the standard benchmark in the UK in 2015. Both private parking Trade Bodies amended their Codes of Practice to suit; a fact that this Claimant and their legal representative, Gladstones, is well aware of, given that Gladstones is run by the same controlling minds behind the IPC.

    This operator is in breach of the IPC code of Practice in issuing this charge after just six minutes (a time not even proven because the operator's watch is not routinely synchronised to the Pay and Display machines).

    You appear to have quoted the IPC Code of Practice wrongly. it defines ten minutes as the minimum:

    https://theipc.info/uploads/vjnl0XFpge5CLwGPL3dN-KbdoEvOKUccAjn36Cbetwo/Amended%20Code%20of%20Practice%2001.10.2016.pdf

    ''15. Grace Periods
    15.1 Drivers should be allowed a sufficient amount of time to park and read any signs so they may make an informed decision as to whether or not to remain on the site. Drivers must be allowed a minimum period of 10 minutes to leave a site after a prepaid or permitted period of parking has expired.

    The reference to 10 minutes in 15.2 above shall not apply where the period of pre-paid or permitted parking does not exceed 1 hour providing that the signage on the site makes it clear to the motorist, in a prominent font, that no grace period applies on that land.''

    If your Mum (the keeper) was the driver or passenger, does she have mobility problems that could be mentioned as well?

    If she wasn't the driver the defence should say so (remember the statement of truth and to get her to sign this, all in her name (not you).
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  • presc
    presc Posts: 45 Forumite
    Thank you, I have made the changes to the defense letter.

    Few questions though:
    My mother doesn't have any mobility problems and she was the driver at the time. From what I understand, I should not mention that she was a driver? Or...

    Just for clarity:
    The claim doesn't explain why she got the ticket, but then I go and talk about the grace periods, meaning that she clearly knows she overstayed, also meaning she must have been the driver. So in that case, is it better to say that she was the driver and explain why she has overstayed?

    Also, the previous letters from the PPC mentioned the reason for the ticket, but the claim does not. It does seem like an opportunity to mention that the claim was a "robo-claim".
  • presc
    presc Posts: 45 Forumite
    Ok, here's an updated version of the defence. The points where I added the changes are mainly 3, 4 and 5.

    I also was wondering: Should I include all the photos when sending this letter (I imagine that's a yes?) and should they have be named accordingly and mentioned appropriately in the main body of the text? E.g. Appendix 1,2,3...?


    Statement of Defence

    I am XXXXX, defendant in this matter and deny liability for the entirety of the claim for the following reasons:

    1. It is admitted that the Defendant was the authorised registered keeper of the vehicle in question at the time of the alleged incident.

    2. The identity of the driver of the vehicle on the date in question has not been ascertained.
    a) The Claimant did not identify the driver.
    b) The Defendant has no liability, as they are the Keeper of the vehicle and the Claimant must rely upon the strict provisions of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 in order to hold the defendant responsible for the driver’s alleged breach.

    3. The full details of the contract which it is alleged was broken have not been provided.
    a) The Claimant has disclosed no cause of action to give rise to any debt.
    b) The Claimant has stated that a parking charge was incurred.

    The claim simply states: “The driver of the vehicle registration XXXXX incurred the parking charge(s) on XXX for breaching the terms of parking on the land at XXXXX.”

    The claimant fails to comply with International Parking Community Code of Practice regarding the grace periods:
    “15.1 Drivers should be allowed a sufficient amount of time to park and read any signs so they may make an informed decision as to whether or not to remain on the site.
    15.2 Drivers must be allowed a minimum period of 10 minutes to leave a site after a prepaid or permitted period of parking has expired.
    15.3 The reference to 10 minutes in 15.2 above shall not apply where the period of pre-paid or permitted parking does not exceed 1 hour providing that the signage on the site makes it clear to the motorist, in a prominent font, that no grace period applies on that land.”


    Parking Charge Notice was issued six minutes after the pre-paid ticket has expired, a time which is not unreasonable. This is supported by the fact that a minimum grace period of at least ten minutes after expiry of paid-for time was introduced as the standard benchmark in the UK in 2015. Both private parking Trade Bodies amended their Codes of Practice to suit; a fact that this Claimant and their legal representative, Gladstones, is well aware of, given that Gladstones is run by the same controlling minds behind the IPC.

    This operator is in breach of the IPC code of Practice in issuing this charge after just six minutes (a time not even proven because the operator's watch is not routinely synchronised to the Pay and Display machines).

    Signage on the land does not state that Grace Periods do not comply on the particular parking area at XXXXX [image of signage on the parking].


    4. The defendant wrote to the claimant two different occasions (on XXXX and XXXX) trying to appeal and resolve the situation. The defendant asked for:
    i) Full particulars of the parking charges
    ii) Who the party was that contracted with ES Parking.
    Iii) The full legal identity of the landowner
    iv) A full copy of the contract with the landholder that demonstrated that ES Parking had their authority.
    v) If the charges were based on damages for breach of contract and if so to provide justification of this sum
    vi) If the charge was based on a contractually agreed sum for the provision of parking and If so to provide a valid VAT invoice for this 'service'.
    vii) To provide a copy of the signs that ES Parking can evidence were on site and which contended formed a contract with the driver on that occasion, as well as all photographs taken of the vehicle in question.

    The claimant has not responded to any of the letters, despite the fact that postal service is their preferred way of receiving correspondence. According to Interpretations Act 1987, I believe that the appeals I send to the claimant were received but simply ignored. The claimant withheld any relevant photos of the car, particularly the windscreen and dashboard, and the signage terms, despite being asked for by the Defendant at the outset. It’s against the SRA code as well as contrary to the ‘overriding objective’ in the pre action protocol. As Gladstones are a firm of solicitors whose Directors also run the IPC Trade Body and deal with private parking issues every single day of the week, there can be no excuse for these omissions.


    5. The Claimant’s solicitors are known to be a serial issuer of generic claims similar to this one, with no due diligence, no scrutiny of details nor even checking for a true cause of action.
    HMCS have identified over 1000 similar poorly produced claims and the solicitor's conduct in many of these cases is believed to be currently the subject of an active investigation by the SRA. This, and the fact that the claim did not mention the reason for the parking charge, other than, what seems to be a generic formula, makes this claim look like one of the ‘robo-claims’ - a term that is being increasingly used for such conduct. Practices such as this are against the public interest, it demonstrates a disregard for the dignity of the court and is unfair on unrepresented consumers. I have reason to believe that this is a claim that will proceed without any facts or evidence supplied until the last possible minute, to my significant detriment as an unrepresented Defendant.

    I suggest that parking companies using the small claims track as a form of aggressive, automated debt collection is not something the courts should be seen to support.


    6. ES Parking Enforcements are not the lawful occupier of the land. I have the reasonable belief that they do not have the authority to issue charges on this land in their own name and that they have no rights to bring this case.
    a) The Claimant is not the landowner and is merely an agent acting on behalf of the landowner and has failed to demonstrate their legal standing to form a contract.
    b) The claimant is not the landowner and suffers no loss whatsoever as a result of a vehicle parking at the location in question
    c) The Claimant is put to proof that it has sufficient interest in the land or that there are specific terms in its contract to bring an action on its own behalf. As a third party agent, the Claimant may not pursue any charge. I have the reasonable belief that they do not have the authority to issue charges on this land in their own name and that they have no right to bring action regarding this claim.


    7. The Claimant has sent threatening and misleading demands which stated that further debt recovery action would be taken to recover what is owed by passing the debt to a ‘local’ recovery agent (which suggested to the Defendant they would be calling round like bailiffs) adding further unexplained charges of £25 to the original £100 with no evidence of how this extra charge has been calculated. No figure for additional charges was 'agreed' nor could it have formed part of the alleged 'contract' because no such indemnity costs were quantified on the signs. Terms cannot be bolted on later with figures plucked out of thin air, as if they were
    incorporated into the small print when they were not. This appears to be an added cost with no apparently no qualification and an attempt at double recovery, which the POFA Schedule 4 specifically disallows.
    b) The Defendant also disputes that the Claimant has incurred £50 solicitor costs.
    c) The Defendant has the reasonable belief that the Claimant has not incurred £50 costs to pursue an alleged £100 debt.
    d) Notwithstanding the Defendant's belief, the costs are in any case not recoverable.
    e) The Claimant described the charge of £50.00 "legal fees" not "contractual costs".
    CPR 27.14 does not permit these to be recovered in the Small Claims Court.

    The Protection of Freedom Act Para 4(5) states that the maximum sum that may be recovered from the keeper is the charge stated on the Notice to Keeper.



    DEFENDANT DECLARATION

    I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true.


    Signed by the Defendant


    ………………………………….
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,396 Forumite
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    Just for clarity:
    The claim doesn't explain why she got the ticket, but then I go and talk about the grace periods, meaning that she clearly knows she overstayed, also meaning she must have been the driver. So in that case, is it better to say that she was the driver and explain why she has overstayed?

    I would defend this as driver if I were her. Not get tied up in knots as 'keeper' in this case.

    Also, the previous letters from the PPC mentioned the reason for the ticket, but the claim does not. It does seem like an opportunity to mention that the claim was a "robo-claim".
    Yes.
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  • presc
    presc Posts: 45 Forumite
    I would defend this as driver if I were her. Not get tied up in knots as 'keeper' in this case.
    In this case I have removed the 2nd point in the defense and changed the #1 to:

    1. It is admitted that the Defendant was the authorised registered keeper and the driver of the vehicle in question at the time of the alleged incident.
    Yes.
    I have added it in the 5th point (as in previous post).


    I guess that in this case this is it? It's just a matter of filling in the blanks?
    This: http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5546325 explains that at this stage I just need to send the defence and later (point #5 - Witness Statement) I will have to file all the documents. In that case how can I reference the photos in the defence? Or I just don't and later I simply file the evidence?



    Also, RedX earlier in this thread mentioned that:
    (the case) could be "dropped" beforehand, meaning it may never get in front of a judge in person. there is a long way to go before any court appearance

    But other threads such us "Court Claim Procedure" just talks about one thing after the other. Doesn't really mention that it can be dropped. Basically, you got the claim = you go to the court.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,396 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Post Photogenic First Anniversary
    edited 22 April 2017 at 6:30PM
    In that case how can I reference the photos in the defence? Or I just don't and later I simply file the evidence?
    You can mention that you have photo evidence in the defence if you wish but no need for detail, because you then file that with the WS before the hearing.

    But other threads such us "Court Claim Procedure" just talks about one thing after the other. Doesn't really mention that it can be dropped. Basically, you got the claim = you go to the court.
    That's because most cases do end up with a hearing so we wouldn't want to mislead people into thinking loads of cases are discontinued. Most are not. But we help people win pretty much every case.

    Of course some cases are discontinued. Search this board for 'discontinued' as a keyword and you find some cases where that has happened - the most recent (apart from CEL and MIL cases which are currently always discontinued when well defended in 2016/17) was LoadsofChildren123's case, where the claimant gave up just before the hearing.
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