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Inventory not signed or agreed - agent's right to deposit?

At the start of our tenancy our agent sent us the inventory to sign and agree, we disputed quite a few items on it, they said they'd get back to us and never did, so we never had a signed inventory throughout our tenancy. We've moved out and they've given us a list of items which they think we're responsible for - some are fine, some are bogus - do they have any legal right to hold on to any of our deposit without the signed agreement?

Comments

  • System
    System Posts: 178,077
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    If they have dated photos from when you moved in and from when you moved out along with proof that you were in receipt of those photos then they have a good chance that the adjudicator may rule in their favour should it get that far.
  • Simply dispute the issue with the deposit scheme: That's what it's there for!
  • Simonr66 wrote: »
    If they have dated photos from when you moved in and from when you moved out along with proof that you were in receipt of those photos then they have a good chance that the adjudicator may rule in their favour should it get that far.

    Thanks! They only have an unsigned inventory with written descriptions, no photos of any of the items they're flagging up. We have photos of some things (eg. they're trying to charge us for a broken integrated fridge door which was already faulty when we moved in - we have photos and emails from the start of our tenancy to prove this, and a series of emails which we sent them as it was progressively getting worse until it eventually broke. Landlord was told about it but did nothing to fix it at the time, and eventually it just broke. But as another example, they've also flagged up a damaged extractor fan, which neither of the agent of we have photos of - so in this case, if there is no signed inventory, would they still be able to take money for it?)

    Worth mentioning there are a few things which I know are our fault - coffee stain on a carpet for example - which I'm more than happy to pay for, but I don't want to get stung for things unfairly, especially if there is no signed inventory in place.
  • To make any deduction they need to provide reasonable proof that the condition of the item has changed. If they can’t show a signed inventory or photos they are unlikely to win if you appeal.

    They are probably trying their luck in the hope that you won’t go to the trouble of appealing. But do. Gather all the evidence you have, emails, photos, correnspndance about the initial problems you noted. There are no guarantees but you should win.
    I'm not a lawyer, so this is just my opinion. Don't go acting on legal advice you get from a stranger on the internet!
  • System
    System Posts: 178,077
    Photogenic Name Dropper First Post
    Community Admin
    project_c wrote: »
    Thanks! They only have an unsigned inventory with written descriptions, no photos of any of the items they're flagging up. We have photos of some things (eg. they're trying to charge us for a broken integrated fridge door which was already faulty when we moved in - we have photos and emails from the start of our tenancy to prove this, and a series of emails which we sent them as it was progressively getting worse until it eventually broke. Landlord was told about it but did nothing to fix it at the time, and eventually it just broke. But as another example, they've also flagged up a damaged extractor fan, which neither of the agent of we have photos of - so in this case, if there is no signed inventory, would they still be able to take money for it?)

    Worth mentioning there are a few things which I know are our fault - coffee stain on a carpet for example - which I'm more than happy to pay for, but I don't want to get stung for things unfairly, especially if there is no signed inventory in place.


    Again the inventory doesn't need to be signed just proof that you had one even then photos are more important than the written inventory as this is how the adjudicator will determine if there is a claim or not. its very unlikely they will rule against you if photos cannot be provided
  • G_M
    G_M Posts: 51,977
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    edited 16 February 2019 at 11:25AM
    project_c wrote: »
    .....do they have any legal right to hold on to any of our deposit without the signed agreement?
    The simple answer is yes.

    If you cause damage to the property, or remove items belonging the the landlord, you are legally liable and can be made to pay - via the courts (or arbitrators) if necessary.

    Of course, as with any legal dispute, evidence and/or proof is required by the claimant.

    The inventory, ideally signed, is the typical evidence presented in cases like this, but it is not the only evidence that a landlord can submit.

    Obvious other examples would be

    * a receipt for cleaning by a cleaning company dated immediately prior to the tenancy
    * dated photographs
    * a receipt for redecoration from a contractor dated immediately prior to the tenancy
    * a receipt for a new washing machine
    etc


    The arbitrator/judge will assess all the evidence submitted (by each side) together with any claim/explanation, and then decide on the balance of probability (NOT 'beyond all reasonable doubt' - that applies in criminal cases) who to believe.


    Indeed, the LL does not have to provide any evidence to support his claim. If the tenant were to submit no defence to the claim, or were to present such ludicrous explanations as to throw his credibilty into doubt, the landlord could still succeed.
  • G_M wrote: »
    The simple answer is yes.

    If you cause damage to the property, or remove items belonging the the landlord, you are legally liable and can be made to pay - via the courts (or arbitrators) if necessary.

    Of course, as with any legal dispute, evidence and/or proof is required by the claimant.

    The inventory, ideally signed, is the typical evidence presented in cases like this, but it is not the only evidence that a landlord can submit.

    Obvious other examples would be

    * a receipt for cleaning by a cleaning company dated immediately prior to the tenancy
    * dated photographs
    * a receipt for redecoration from a contractor dated immediately prior to the tenancy
    * a receipt for a new washing machine
    etc


    The arbitrator/judge will assess all the evidence submitted (by each side) together with any claim/explanation, and then decide on the balance of probability (NOT 'beyond all reasonable doubt' - that applies in criminal cases) who to believe.


    Indeed, the LL does not have to provide any evidence to support his claim. If the tenant were to submit no defence to the claim, or were to present such ludicrous explanations as to throw his credibilty into doubt, the landlord could still succeed.

    What happens in a case where the only evidence is in a disputed inventory which was never resolved? When we moved in, we noticed there were some items in the inventory which were not in the property: a microwave, some chairs, a bin etc. We messaged the agent about this at the time, and they responded to say they will look into it, but nothing happened, and now they're asking where these items are, and trying to charge us for them. (I'm fairly sure those items belonged to the previous tenant who was still in the process of moving when they did the inventory, but I don't know). The only proof we have of this is our messages to them from back then.
  • ThePants999
    ThePants999 Posts: 1,748
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    Estate agent claims from the deposit for missing items. The evidence they produce is an unsigned inventory showing the items.

    You dispute the claim. The evidence you produce is messages from the time you checked in saying that you disagree with the inventory because these items were missing, and a response from the agent saying they'll look into it.

    The adjudicator is obviously going to side with you!
  • G_M
    G_M Posts: 51,977
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    Forumite
    project_c wrote: »
    What happens in a case where the only evidence is in a disputed inventory which was never resolved? When we moved in, we noticed there were some items in the inventory which were not in the property: a microwave, some chairs, a bin etc. We messaged the agent about this at the time, and they responded to say they will look into it, but nothing happened, and now they're asking where these items are, and trying to charge us for them. (I'm fairly sure those items belonged to the previous tenant who was still in the process of moving when they did the inventory, but I don't know). The only proof we have of this is our messages to them from back then.
    As previosuly explained, you each present your case/claim, supported by whatever evidence you feel is relevant, and the adjudicator/judge decides who they believe 'on the balance of probobilities'.
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