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  • FIRST POST
    • Adams18
    • By Adams18 14th Jun 19, 3:03 PM
    • 103Posts
    • 18Thanks
    Adams18
    Complicated Probate case... sigh
    • #1
    • 14th Jun 19, 3:03 PM
    Complicated Probate case... sigh 14th Jun 19 at 3:03 PM
    Hello,

    I've posted in another forum about this situation, but from a different angle regarding the assets. Thread title "Inherited Mortgage due to mature... options?"

    I live in a family home with my mother who owns 75%. The other 25% used to be owned by my father who passed away two years ago. He also owned the mortgage which is outstanding.

    He did have a partner (not legal wife) at time of death who is not my mother.

    This partner has laid claim to the 25%, however this 25% is held in a special "trust" and is only accessible in the the triggering events that my mother (75% owned) dies, remarries or the lender forces sale of the property if mortgage is not paid. The partner has laid claim under the 1975 dependents act.

    But theoretically speaking the 25% does not form part of the estate of my father, nor does it hold any nominal value as it can't be accessed, not even by myself as the heir.

    It's so ridiculously confusing, I've been stressing for two years over it and the mortgage is due to be paid soon on the property.

    He had nothing else in his estate other than the 25% which is a charge back to him in the event of triggering events explained above.

    Is worth me doing probate? To speak to the land registry about ownership for the beneficial interest? And to speak to the mortgage lender? About paying the mortgage? Or will the lender just accept money from anyone as long as it gets cleared?
    Last edited by Adams18; 14-06-2019 at 3:05 PM.
Page 1
    • Yorkshireman99
    • By Yorkshireman99 14th Jun 19, 4:38 PM
    • 5,396 Posts
    • 4,560 Thanks
    Yorkshireman99
    • #2
    • 14th Jun 19, 4:38 PM
    • #2
    • 14th Jun 19, 4:38 PM
    Hello,

    I've posted in another forum about this situation, but from a different angle regarding the assets. Thread title "Inherited Mortgage due to mature... options?"

    I live in a family home with my mother who owns 75%. The other 25% used to be owned by my father who passed away two years ago. He also owned the mortgage which is outstanding.

    He did have a partner (not legal wife) at time of death who is not my mother.

    This partner has laid claim to the 25%, however this 25% is held in a special "trust" and is only accessible in the the triggering events that my mother (75% owned) dies, remarries or the lender forces sale of the property if mortgage is not paid. The partner has laid claim under the 1975 dependents act.

    But theoretically speaking the 25% does not form part of the estate of my father, nor does it hold any nominal value as it can't be accessed, not even by myself as the heir.

    It's so ridiculously confusing, I've been stressing for two years over it and the mortgage is due to be paid soon on the property.

    He had nothing else in his estate other than the 25% which is a charge back to him in the event of triggering events explained above.

    Is worth me doing probate? To speak to the land registry about ownership for the beneficial interest? And to speak to the mortgage lender? About paying the mortgage? Or will the lender just accept money from anyone as long as it gets cleared?
    Originally posted by Adams18
    You paid for professional advice urgently. This is not a DIY job..
    • Adams18
    • By Adams18 14th Jun 19, 4:45 PM
    • 103 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Adams18
    • #3
    • 14th Jun 19, 4:45 PM
    • #3
    • 14th Jun 19, 4:45 PM
    You paid for professional advice urgently. This is not a DIY job..
    Originally posted by Yorkshireman99
    I've paid thousands upon thousands on professionals, and spent last two years trying to solve it

    Don't seem to have got any closer to a solution. Looking for fresh perspectives.

    Lawyers happily take your money, rarely deliver value. And I've tried plenty.
    • Yorkshireman99
    • By Yorkshireman99 14th Jun 19, 9:08 PM
    • 5,396 Posts
    • 4,560 Thanks
    Yorkshireman99
    • #4
    • 14th Jun 19, 9:08 PM
    • #4
    • 14th Jun 19, 9:08 PM
    I've paid thousands upon thousands on professionals, and spent last two years trying to solve it

    Don't seem to have got any closer to a solution. Looking for fresh perspectives.

    Lawyers happily take your money, rarely deliver value. And I've tried plenty.
    Originally posted by Adams18
    What make you think anyone here do better? Find another solicitor.
    • Linton
    • By Linton 15th Jun 19, 5:20 AM
    • 11,176 Posts
    • 11,571 Thanks
    Linton
    • #5
    • 15th Jun 19, 5:20 AM
    • #5
    • 15th Jun 19, 5:20 AM
    Your description of the situation seems odd. Mortgages aren’t inherited. As far as I know when the borrower dies the mortgage needs to be paid off either by selling the property or someone else getting a mortgage in their own name. Does the mortgage company know that your father has died?

    I don’t believe that you can get a mortgage for part of a house. How would the lender get their money back if payments stopped?

    As Yorkshireman says you need good professional advice to fully understand and resolve the situation. You have no other option.
    • Tom99
    • By Tom99 15th Jun 19, 5:50 AM
    • 4,789 Posts
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    Tom99
    • #6
    • 15th Jun 19, 5:50 AM
    • #6
    • 15th Jun 19, 5:50 AM
    Was this trust already set up before your father died or is it a will trust?
    How much is the house worth relative to the mortgage?
    Who has been paying the mortgage for the past 2 yrs?
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 15th Jun 19, 7:00 AM
    • 37,187 Posts
    • 22,949 Thanks
    getmore4less
    • #7
    • 15th Jun 19, 7:00 AM
    • #7
    • 15th Jun 19, 7:00 AM
    MUCH more info in the other thread.

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=6013705
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 15th Jun 19, 7:12 AM
    • 37,187 Posts
    • 22,949 Thanks
    getmore4less
    • #8
    • 15th Jun 19, 7:12 AM
    • #8
    • 15th Jun 19, 7:12 AM
    Reading both threads.

    The jist of it seem to be to be

    There was a financial settlement when parents divorced that created a debt(25%) against the property that had to be repaid when the trigger events happen.

    The parents remained joint legal owners with a mortgage in the father name.

    What is not clear is if this is offset by the mortgage debt or not.

    That debt is an asset of the fathers estate.

    Unless the court order covered the death of the father it would seem that this debt just remains in limbo till the triggers release it.


    Father died intestate, divorced/not remarried, children inherit.

    Any claim would be to inherit the debt owed to the estate.

    Then it would need a forced sale if the trigger events do not happen.


    Also seems the legal ownership has already been changed to just the mother and the mortgage company want their money
    • Tom99
    • By Tom99 15th Jun 19, 8:10 AM
    • 4,789 Posts
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    Tom99
    • #9
    • 15th Jun 19, 8:10 AM
    • #9
    • 15th Jun 19, 8:10 AM
    Is worth me doing probate? To speak to the land registry about ownership for the beneficial interest? And to speak to the mortgage lender? About paying the mortgage? Or will the lender just accept money from anyone as long as it gets cleared?
    Originally posted by Adams18
    The Land Reg deal with the legal ownership so I doubt they can help you.
    It seems your father's estate consists of a reversionary interest in the house at some future date less a £80k debt.
    Since your mother as joint owner would have been party to this £80k mortgage can it be established without doubt that the debt is entirely your father's?
    Somehow the mortgage will need to be dealt with.
    If you apply for probate you will claim inheritance of your fathers estate. Would that then enable you to become a joint legal owner with you mother and pay off the mortgage?
    Has the ex-partner made a formal claim? Has that claim put any restrictions on your father's estate?
    I can't see how applying for probate puts you in any worse situation that you are at the moment.
    • Manxman in exile
    • By Manxman in exile 15th Jun 19, 10:26 AM
    • 2,856 Posts
    • 2,544 Thanks
    Manxman in exile
    Reading both threads.

    The jist of it seem to be to be

    There was a financial settlement when parents divorced that created a debt(25%) against the property that had to be repaid when the trigger events happen.

    The parents remained joint legal owners with a mortgage in the father name.

    What is not clear is if this is offset by the mortgage debt or not.

    That debt is an asset of the fathers estate.

    Unless the court order covered the death of the father it would seem that this debt just remains in limbo till the triggers release it.


    Father died intestate, divorced/not remarried, children inherit.

    Any claim would be to inherit the debt owed to the estate.

    Then it would need a forced sale if the trigger events do not happen.


    Also seems the legal ownership has already been changed to just the mother and the mortgage company want their money
    Originally posted by getmore4less

    I'm probably being thick, but wouldn't it be very unusual for the divorce order from 20 years ago to provide for the mother's death, but not the father's?


    That seems bonkers to me, but I know nothing about divorce law.


    Perhaps the OP can post the relevant wording as requested in the other thread.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 15th Jun 19, 12:56 PM
    • 37,187 Posts
    • 22,949 Thanks
    getmore4less
    I'm probably being thick, but wouldn't it be very unusual for the divorce order from 20 years ago to provide for the mother's death, but not the father's?


    That seems bonkers to me, but I know nothing about divorce law.


    Perhaps the OP can post the relevant wording as requested in the other thread.
    Originally posted by Manxman in exile
    I am not surprised as this was to do with the triggers for the occupation of the property.

    The father was not living in the place.
    • Adams18
    • By Adams18 15th Jun 19, 1:09 PM
    • 103 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Adams18
    Your description of the situation seems odd. Mortgages arenít inherited. As far as I know when the borrower dies the mortgage needs to be paid off either by selling the property or someone else getting a mortgage in their own name. Does the mortgage company know that your father has died?

    I donít believe that you can get a mortgage for part of a house. How would the lender get their money back if payments stopped?

    As Yorkshireman says you need good professional advice to fully understand and resolve the situation. You have no other option.
    Originally posted by Linton

    Let me attempt to make it more simple to understand for you.

    I've lived in a house for 25 years. This house has an outstanding interest only mortgage that is due to mature in 3 months time. The bank want 80,000 pounds or they will take this house away.

    The mortgage was taken out by my father, he is now dead. His name is on the account, he is solely responsible as far as the lender is concerned.

    The house itself has one legal owner who is my mother. The house also has two beneficial interest owners, my mother and my father. The beneficial interest for my father amounts to 25 per cent. For my mother it is 75 per cent.

    My fathers 25 per cent can ONLY be accessed, liquidated, materialised in the event that my mother 1. Dies 2. Remarries. or 3. The house is sold by the lender.

    There is a court order that enforces the above.

    Hence if the mortgage is not paid, the house is gone, and I have to leave along with my mother.

    What would you do? If you in a community for 25 years and you had the ability to pay the mortgage given the above information?

    Pay? Or leave, this is my dilemma. It has very complicated... such as will the 25 per cent be resolved..? Etc... All I know is I have 3 months to inform the bank on what I intend to do... all they care about of course is their money!
    • Adams18
    • By Adams18 15th Jun 19, 1:10 PM
    • 103 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Adams18
    What make you think anyone here do better? Find another solicitor.
    Originally posted by Yorkshireman99

    What is your problem? What's with the unhelpful comments exactly?

    I've already said I am looking for a fresh perspective here. It either comes or doesn't come, it's free to try as I've exhausted legal advise and spent a fortune.
    • Adams18
    • By Adams18 15th Jun 19, 1:28 PM
    • 103 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Adams18
    The Land Reg deal with the legal ownership so I doubt they can help you.
    It seems your father's estate consists of a reversionary interest in the house at some future date less a £80k debt.
    Since your mother as joint owner would have been party to this £80k mortgage can it be established without doubt that the debt is entirely your father's?
    Somehow the mortgage will need to be dealt with.
    If you apply for probate you will claim inheritance of your fathers estate. Would that then enable you to become a joint legal owner with you mother and pay off the mortgage?
    Has the ex-partner made a formal claim? Has that claim put any restrictions on your father's estate?
    I can't see how applying for probate puts you in any worse situation that you are at the moment.
    Originally posted by Tom99

    Thank you for you reply, excellent points.

    When he passed, my mother removed his name as Legal Owner on the property, leaving her as the sole legal owner (we thought about adding myself on as well) however a solicitor didn't think it would be advantageous as this stage. Land Registry aren't satisfied with dealing in the 25% beneficial interest until letters of administration can be shown.

    "Reversionary right" is an accurate enough description of my fathers claim/ estates claim to the 25% beneficial interest, which is essentially a chargeback at some future date pending the triggering events. However as the triggering events precede any chargeback of the 25% to his estate, the £80k debt is first dealt with either by cash (myself/mother) or by selling the property, clearing the 80k and THEN the net proceeds are split 75/25.

    Now the estate would contain 25% of the value from the net proceeds of the property sale where the claimaint (ex-partner) can put forth her claim. She is claiming for all of it at the moment, via her solicitors, under the 1975 act for cohabitation.

    But my solicitor warned me that I were to remortgage or pay the 80k debt in 3 months, the court order for the triggering events would cease (as it is somehow incumbent on the existing mortgage/outstanding liability on the property.

    From the legal papers I have now dating back to the divorce and the court orders, and the mortgage papers, only my father is soley listed as the mortgage owner, not my mother and the lender won't deal with her except to pay for arrears./

    If I apply for probate, it allows me to deal better with the lender via letters of administration in remortgaging or paying directly, and with the land registry in removing any restrictions to sell the property (standard property restrictions for tenants in common) and to assume my fathers previous position on the 25%.. I can't inherit it...as per the court order/ triggering events.

    I am in the same situation as my dad when he was alive.

    The ex partner put forth her claim, I had something called a caveat in place to block any attempts to deal with probate without my authority, and she caused it to become permanent, removable by court order only... essentially delaying my ability to do probate till it was removed.

    She has since allowed me to remove the caveat, so I can start probate. My solicitor also seems to think probate would be a good idea right now.

    The way he described the 25% as it stands was " the nominal value of the beneficial interest is what somebody would be prepared to pay now based on the life expectancy of somebody aged 54 years of age. I doubt there is a market for such interests opener which illustrates the point that there is no immediate right to the 25% by the estate, or anyone."
    Last edited by Adams18; 15-06-2019 at 1:43 PM.
    • Adams18
    • By Adams18 15th Jun 19, 1:36 PM
    • 103 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Adams18
    I'm probably being thick, but wouldn't it be very unusual for the divorce order from 20 years ago to provide for the mother's death, but not the father's?


    That seems bonkers to me, but I know nothing about divorce law.


    Perhaps the OP can post the relevant wording as requested in the other thread.
    Originally posted by Manxman in exile
    I am not surprised as this was to do with the triggers for the occupation of the property.
    Originally posted by getmore4less
    Following divorce proceedings an order provided for the transfer of the property from my father to the my mother with a chargeback of 25% to him not to be enforced until either the my mothers death or remarriage. My father must have !!!!ed of the judge or something.

    A later order amended the above order to provide instead for the transfer of the property into the joint names of my mother and my father (following divorce proceedings) as tenants in common as to 75/25 HOWEVER as the same terms as the above order with the chargeback clause.


    The lender, I believe, figured well... no hold on a moment... we won't let my father be removed from his responsibility in the house as the one who took out the mortgage, so they still have him on the mortgage account and send out frequent correspondence in his name. They wont deal with my mom. They will either sell and get their money, or expect to be paid by my father. Or through probate/myself. And no i haven't told them he died yet because I am waiting till I can pay before risking anything. I live here.
    Last edited by Adams18; 15-06-2019 at 1:41 PM.
    • Tom99
    • By Tom99 15th Jun 19, 1:50 PM
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    Tom99
    Did your father have any other assets?
    You say the house is worth £500k so say 25%=£125k.
    But subject to a life interest for a 54yr old.
    The value of that interest is going to be way below the £80k debt
    You apply for probate giving a value of that interest as lets just say £40k but with a debt of £80k.
    Is that not going to help your case in defeating the claim on his estate?
    • Adams18
    • By Adams18 15th Jun 19, 2:09 PM
    • 103 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Adams18
    Did your father have any other assets?
    You say the house is worth £500k so say 25%=£125k.
    But subject to a life interest for a 54yr old.
    The value of that interest is going to be way below the £80k debt
    You apply for probate giving a value of that interest as lets just say £40k but with a debt of £80k.
    Is that not going to help your case in defeating the claim on his estate?
    Originally posted by Tom99
    He has no other assets that I or the claimant, supposedly, knows about. She lived with him for 15 years.

    It's worth 125k as of now, if it were accessible. The claimant doesn't yet know about the chargeback clause, I've only just told her solicitor last week, in the hopes of discouraging her for her claim and hopefully she drops the case.

    "The value of that interest is going to be way below the £80k debt"

    "You apply for probate giving a value of that interest as lets just say £40k but with a debt of £80k"


    What do you mean by the above? You mean the value accumulated on the 25% over the period my mother remains alive versus £80k?

    So you mean to say 40k minus 80k = -40k in the estate to discourage claimaint, as there is not much in it for her?

    From the very beginning, I didn't realise the chargeback/court order ....so I posited to the claimant that the estate was really 125k (current value of 25%) minus 80k (debt)... and not worth the effort.


    "Is that not going to help your case in defeating the claim on his estate?"

    Could very well do, I await the response from the claimant about the court order... and I am thinking to do probate myself... however I don't know if I can class this as a reasonably "uncomplicated" estate however, i hope it is simple enough to apply.
    Last edited by Adams18; 15-06-2019 at 2:19 PM.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 15th Jun 19, 2:11 PM
    • 37,187 Posts
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    getmore4less
    If there is no caveat now one possible scenario

    Get the grant

    estate gets 25% less mortgage value.

    Mother gets 75%+mortgage value

    If you can buy the estates beneficial interest then you have the house.

    Estate has cash.

    Then you argue out the beneficiary of the estate.
    • Sea Shell
    • By Sea Shell 15th Jun 19, 2:21 PM
    • 2,396 Posts
    • 4,290 Thanks
    Sea Shell
    Who's been paying the mortgage currently and from whose account??

    You say you haven't notified the lender that your father's passed away yet, but what about his bank accounts?
    " That pound I saved yesterday, is a pound I don't have to earn tomorrow " JOB DONE!!
    This should now read "It's time to start digging up those Squirrelled Nuts"!!!
    • Adams18
    • By Adams18 15th Jun 19, 2:35 PM
    • 103 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Adams18
    Who's been paying the mortgage currently and from whose account??

    You say you haven't notified the lender that your father's passed away yet, but what about his bank accounts?
    Originally posted by Sea Shell

    I pay the interest component, just hand to my mother cash and she pays it somewhere to the account via deposit.

    I definitely dealt with his bank accounts, and closed them, even though several thousand were siphened off his bank account following his death, I reclaimed the money via fraud/police
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