Not Dead Yet!!

iang319 · 6 January 2019 at 4:57PM

My 90 year old mum has lived with us since my Dad died a few years ago. To cut a long story short, after spending some of the proceeds from her house sale on a Granny flat next to our house, there is some £30K left. This or whatever is left, will been left to my wife and I in her will. However she has said that she would like us to have £10K each now to enjoy while she is around rather than after her death, and also "... rather than somebody else having it"!! This latter remark is probably in recognition that she has worsening dementia and might end up in care. Something my wife and I will do all we can to avoid but I suppose it is a possibility. She isn't always as clear minded as this and I'm concerned that if we proceed with her wishes we could be accused of manipulation (though by whom I'm not sure) or if she did end up in care the SS could try and reclaim the money.

I not really sure how to proceed if at all. Should I just do it, as she has asked (we have financial power of attorney) or try and get her to sign something or even get a neighbour to witness her wishes (though I'm not really happy with this as they would be a stranger to her) or just leave things alone, do nothing and not respect her wishes. We have capital of our own and aren't in need of the money.

Thanks for any thoughts.
IanG

need_an_answer · 6 January 2019 at 5:11PM

She is allowed to gift a certain amount each year...sorry at present I don't know the exact amount however its less than £20k...something like £3k rings a bell.

In terms of dementia care,I've been there with an elderly parent and with the best will in the world and spoken from the heart its actually better to allow the professionals in and take the residential care if needed rather than you and your family literally running yourself into the ground.
You cant be there 24/7 and the condition is progressive and whilst manageable in the early to even mid stages its not something that I would wish upon anyone who is a relative to watch and have to care full time for those they love deteriorate into the latter stages.

With that in mind you may need to see what assets your mother has before deciding to give it away.

Its also worth bearing in mind that if genuine assets are below £25k then it would only be a portion of care fees that would be required to be paid by your mother. social services will assess finances and yes if the £20k is "given away" they may well claim that there has been a deliberate deprivation of assets,so you would need to be mindful of ensuring that all is above board and as in our case potentially prove via bank statements that as POA you have acted in your mothers best interest.

Yorkshireman99 · 6 January 2019 at 5:18PM

The short answer is you cannot do this. The POA does not allow it.

troubleinparadise · 6 January 2019 at 5:33PM

Your mother is 90, has dementia, and £30,000 cash and a granny annexe she owns to support herself for the rest of her life.

You cannot gift her money to yourselves under POA, whatever she says. A POA is there to be used in the best interests of the donor - your mother - not anyone else.

She may never need care in her home, you may be able to give her any care needed, or she might need to pay for additional care in her home. Or she may ultimately need residential care, which she will need to pay for - she has the assets which will exceed the LA funding threshold. The LA will not pay for her care unless it is deemed that she meets the criteria for Continuing Funded Care.

So the last thing you should be considering is taking her money and leaving her with £10k to survive on when there are so many unknowns about her future, let alone the legal aspects of POA and “deprivation of assets” (Google it).

antrobus · 6 January 2019 at 5:36PM

If it makes your mother happy, let her pay you the £10K each. You don't have to spend it. You can keep it and spend it on her future care if necessary.

As far as her ending up in care. If she has more than £23,250 in ca[ital the LA will require her to pay for it herself. What's the granny flat worth?

Flugelhorn · 6 January 2019 at 5:49PM

Interesting thought re value of "granny flats" - this is next to the OP's house. Was it an extension built on your house? If so does it really add value to the property ? and also can Granny actually get the money back out of the property to fund care ?- just thinking possibly not. How does LA funding assessment work in these cases?

iang319 · 6 January 2019 at 6:21PM

Blimey, glad I asked!!

Bear in mind these were her wishes, I just thought that the POA would be the enabler. So I just have to tell her she can't do it? She wanted to buy us premium bonds.

The Granny Flat is an extension on the side of the house, access is through our house, it doesn't have it own access. It was built in 2014 at a cost of about £60K.

She goes into a care home occasionally for respite, I've seen how the "experts" care for her. My wife and I will look after her for as long as we can.

SevenOfNine · 6 January 2019 at 6:30PM

Age UK produce some good info on deprivation, funding etc. https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/care/paying-for-care/paying-for-a-care-home/deprivation-of-assets/

Her accounts are likely to be looked at very carefully with £20k having been removed should she need council funding in the future. You all know very well that the possibility is already on the cards.

troubleinparadise · 6 January 2019 at 6:40PM

Should you go ahead and take her gift, the LA can refuse to pay for her care if they do a financial assessment because she needs care and is looking to them for funding and she has no cash available.

There can be a deferment of care fee payment against the sale of a property - but it looks as though her granny flat she has funded is not saleable. So that cash is all she has, isn’t it?

The worse case scenario may never happen, but you should adhere to the rules of the POA, not adapt them to what suits you.

But if she already has respite care home stays then her dementia and care needs are progressing, and it is only fair to keep her assets for her needs, whatever she says.

Why doesn’t she invest some of her cash in Premium Bonds in her own name, thereby not breaking the rules. If she wins big then that improves her lot, but her funds still remain accessible.

iang319 · 6 January 2019 at 7:08PM

Thanks for all the advice. I've decided to do nothing, I don't want to be doing anything remotely dodgy and am happy to let things take their course. I had no idea!!

Thanks again.
Ian

Savvy_Sue · 7 January 2019 at 2:03AM

iang319 wrote: »

Thanks for all the advice. I've decided to do nothing, I don't want to be doing anything remotely dodgy and am happy to let things take their course. I had no idea!!

That's a bit scary ...

It sounds as if you're in the fortunate position that you and your wife are the sole beneficiaries of your mother's will - you say you don't know who might accuse you of manipulation, which suggests there are no other loving relatives on the scene or likely to crawl out of the woodwork.

But if you have LPA, then you really SHOULD be better informed about the extent of your POWER.

You have the power to act on behalf of your mother, but that power can only be used FOR HER BENEFIT. There are exceptions for 'customary gifts' - so if your mum used to give you or others birthday and Christmas gifts, you can continue to buy these ON HER BEHALF and in her name, even when she is no longer capable of doing so and has no idea who you are (I hope it never comes to that, but it might).

I can see the argument for buying £20K of premium bonds in her name might have some benefit to her, but not gifting that amount to you / your wife.

Please find out more about your responsibilities ... there's a very basic introduction here.

Not Dead Yet!!

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