Unlawful TV Licence Enforcement

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  • Herbie21
    Herbie21 Posts: 562 Forumite
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    Labsuper wrote: »
    Did it? I hope you have someone in your business who pays more attention to detail.

    Amended thank you!!

    Keyboard engaged before brain....
  • Herbie21
    Herbie21 Posts: 562 Forumite
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    Cornucopia wrote: »

    - Capita presents TV Licensing cases in Magistrates Courts (including under the Single Justice Procedure).

    - The people who present the cases are Capita employees who are not Barristers. They are not even Solicitors. Capita calls them "Court Presenters".

    - In theory, they should ask permission from the Court at every session, and in theory the Court should weigh up whether the interests of Justice are best served by granting that permission. This does not appear to be routinely happening. An FOI request might be revealing on this, though. :cool:

    - Because Capita Court Presenters are not Solicitors, they are not bound by the Solicitors code of conduct, and they are not subject to the relevant disciplinary procedures. Some of their activities inside and outside Courts are questionable, and it's likely that if they were Solicitors they would not conduct themselves in that way.

    Another important point is the 'prosecution costs' which are typically around £125. And who do these costs go to......Capita of course.
  • Cornucopia
    Cornucopia Posts: 16,156 Forumite
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    edited 11 August 2018 at 7:41AM
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    Some FMs may be aware that there are a variety of legal approaches that can be adopted in order to prevent TV Licensing from causing undue stress, harassment, etc. to you and your household.

    The issue with many options is that they are legally complex, and that they can have legal or practical side-effects.

    Of those that don't have side-effects, my favourite option up to now has been to invoke the PACE Right to decline interview in writing, in advance. When I did this, the BBC's response was to instruct TV Licensing never to contact me. Whilst this response is not guaranteed, using these PACE rights can be expected to be very effective, since they are well-documented, and if the BBC does not observe them properly, it can create legal difficulties for them with the Courts.

    The BBC's failure to respond to these Human Rights Law observations gives rise to a new legal option, which is to simply say to them that their approach does not meet the requirements of Article 8.2, it is therefore unlawful, and (a) they cannot compel or coerce you into complying with an unlawful process, and (b) if they try, you will not cooperate because their process is unlawful.
  • Murphybear
    Murphybear Posts: 7,279 Forumite
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    I got a visit from the tv enforcement bods once.
    They asked me if I had a tv licence.
    I said yes.
    They asked me if I could show it to them.
    I showed it to them

    :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

    My tv licence costs me £7.50 pa now, because I live in over 60s accommodation (not many people know this)
  • Lalski
    Lalski Posts: 6 Forumite
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    The license fee is optional (as are all taxes and levies) All the evidence of proof is on the Governments own website. legislation.gov.uk
    We are programmed from conception to follow what we are told is authority, and if we don't conduct our lives accordingly we will face punishment. Even to the extent of caging us for a determined length of time...
    The vast majority of the worlds populous has forgotten (by malevolent means I say) that we are the employers and if you fail in your duties you've sworn an oath to uphold, you are guilty of 'Public Office' offence/s and should face a Peoples Grand Jury (the only place for true justice)
  • Lalski
    Lalski Posts: 6 Forumite
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    If you don't receive a reply from TVL (or other body for that matter) within a timescale you set in correspondence, they cannot claim against you because they tacitly agree with and hence uphold your initial complaint or grievance. It's all in the wording and, the ability to converse in 'Legalese' (language of the police, courts, judiciary etc) is a profound plus...
  • Heedtheadvice
    Heedtheadvice Posts: 2,460 Forumite
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    Had to laugh.

    after being pleased at " BBC's response was to instruct TV Licensing never to contact me. "
    C 'compliains' at not getting response from Tv Licensing  :):smiley:



  • Heedtheadvice
    Heedtheadvice Posts: 2,460 Forumite
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    But on a serious note...
    I agree that this all comes across as another way to justify the well know aversion of Cornucopia to the TV licensing system!
    I have some sympathy with that aversion as I see it as another 'tax' under a different guise. However, despite believing the BBC is far from perfect, it is an organisation that we all benefit from in one way or another (whether we as individuals watch programmes or not) as it is a public service but not the only one for sure.
    Many public services we pay for when not directly benefiting but society benefits.
    The License system is out of date. Taxation and central government funding can lead to too much interference. The German system as mentioned here seems a lot better!

    Now the claim is that the enforcement is illegal. To make that claim valid the remedy is either via Parliament or by legal case to decide on the allegation?

    I was quite astounded by the figure posted regarding the number of enforcement cases per week. 3500 ?
    (Solicitor's fees (if they were required) would increase costs enormously)
    It is implied Capita do that for their own benefit. If the cases were not upheld their losses might rise? Or do they get paid just for trying?

    If there are 3500 evasion per week then as a payer I am glad if those people evading are caught and made to pay what they ought to!
    So, there might be human rights issues (legally not proved so far) but IMHO still being used as a get out for not paying.
    As they say, "count me out".

  • Cornucopia
    Cornucopia Posts: 16,156 Forumite
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    edited 12 June 2020 at 10:10AM
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    You're responding to something that's nearly 2 years old, but by mentioning me personally, you kind of oblige me to respond.

    Firstly, I don't think I've "compliained" that TVL have been banned from contacting me by the BBC.   In any case, since the ban was made by them, I'm sure they would write to me if they wanted to, or in response to communication from me.   But it is nice to be outside the usual TVL harassment by post and in person.

    The future of the Licence Fee will unfold in due course.   I don't think any of us has any significant input into that process, though I have given my views when consultations have been offered.   

    The claim that it is illegal/unlawful is based on my own findings without going to heroic measures like paying real money for a human rights barrister.   Even in basic terms, there's clearly something wrong with a process whereby TVL threaten to visit you, then they visit you, then they question you (using a fallible paper form) and then they prosecute you.   They do all of that whilst giving away as little information about your rights as possible.   If that is lawful, then it shouldn't be.  The process *must* be transparent.

    Digging deeper, you find that the paper form is not consistent with PACE, the caution (if one is even given) is not consistent with PACE, and their presence on the doorstep/in your home without enabling legislation is in contradiction to Article 8.2 of the HRA.   If they had enabling legislation, it would be required by law to have wording that was explicit, specific, accessible, understandable and proof against arbitrariness.  Clearly, if it met those requirements then it would be all the more obvious what it was, but it doesn't because it isn't there.

    So, yes, it's true to say that it's my opinion that it is unlawful, but that opinion is based in a certain amount of research.   I suppose it might be possible to mount a judicial review, but I am not now a victim of the process, so that would present difficulties.   It would also be very expensive, and the costs at risk would no doubt be inflated by a very vigourous defence from the BBC using the best lawyers public funds can procure.
  • Heedtheadvice
    Heedtheadvice Posts: 2,460 Forumite
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    Ha! Apologies for bringing this up again. I was looking for something else a d came across the thread. Dont't usually look in this category and missed the date!! Doh!

    You may well be right regarding non comp!iance with HRA but one person's opinion, based upon whatever, does not make it true or generate a change in process.
    Cheers.
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