Electric cars
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Tesla - the only manufacturer who've really tried to make much of their own charging network - gave up on that, remember?There's the potential for plenty of business models for vehicle manufacturers to supply free or included energy for life
Sure, there's scope to make people pay. We're talking about other people paying, though - sorry, "free".or even for energy suppliers to charge usage back to their customer's home account at their own particular unit rate
Absolutely. As EVs become more mainstream, the early-adopter incentives will fade away, including taxation benefits.so there'll likely be a major shake-up in the way the 'remote energy supply' forecourt works over the next few decades ...0 -
HiTesla - the only manufacturer who've really tried to make much of their own charging network - gave up on that, remember?
Sure, there's scope to make people pay. We're talking about other people paying, though - sorry, "free".
Absolutely. As EVs become more mainstream, the early-adopter incentives will fade away, including taxation benefits.
Yet the Tesla charging network is expanding and a 'free' annual energy allowance is credited to the accounts of all Tesla cars currently being delivered in the UK ... doesn't look much like they've given-up yet, remember?
So your issue is that 'other people pay' ... well that was my point if you bothered to look and understand .... these 'other people' are perfectly able to change their supplier to one that doesn't provide such a service and offers cheaper unit prices - attempting to apply a standard argument employed by anti-microgeneration groups to this simply doesn't hold water ...
Regarding future developments in automotive energy supply, there's nothing to prevent manufacturers investing considerable sums to provide their offerings with a substantial competitive advantage ... considering the vast sums spent annually on product development, tens or even hundreds of billions invested in the provision of clean energy by the automotive sector would be a strong possibility, as would be the idea of amortising the cost into the purchase price or lease agreement, along the same lines as inclusive servicing etc ...
In these times of change, change will surely happen - it's just that those resistant to change seem to have issues with acceptance and therefore remain in a condition of denial, with some being exceptionally vocal for various & often suspicious reasons!
HTH
Z"We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
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Given the contribution of ICE vehicles to climate change, one could certainly make an argument that everyone in the world is currently subsidising drivers in their unsustainable mode of transport. And no, even the current huge level of tax on fuel doesn't adequately cover the future costs. So free electricity for EVs is merely rebalancing things somewhat.
Having said that I am sure that the early adopter incentives will soon be removed, and that EV drivers will be paying a reasonable amount for their fuel.0 -
It must be lovely to have everybody else subsidise your transport choices. Completely unsustainable, of course.
Completely unsustainable ....... isn't that the very reason why we need to move away from ICE's because the true cost is too high and subsidised by everybody else (AGW, NHS, shortened lives etc)?
I'm sure you are aware of this, and must therefore have been aware that your post was spin and unsupportable. This is why you give the impression on here of being ideologically opposed to EV's since you will post a negative against any comment, even when you know your position can not be supported.
Is there any chance that you could please look to the bigger picture, rather than being so, so small?Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)
For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.0 -
Gloomendoom wrote: »Is the average recent model Ferrari owner really that bothered about the cost of getting from A to B? I doubt they bought the car simply for its acceleration either.
They might not be concerned, and you might not be concerned, but if luxury high performance cars such as Ferrari's were electric powered, then their impact on the environment (and all of the rest of us) would be reduced massively.
So better performance (electric motor(s), faster acceleration (electric torque), better handling (lower center of gravity and possibly multi-motor torque steering), lower running costs, and lower emissions.
A veritable win, win, win, win .......Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)
For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.0 -
Well, they were completely free.Yet the Tesla charging network is expanding and a 'free' annual energy allowance is credited to the accounts of all Tesla cars currently being delivered in the UK ... doesn't look much like they've given-up yet, remember?
Now there's a couple of freebies then you pay.
Soon...?0 -
HiWell, they were completely free.
Now there's a couple of freebies then you pay.
Soon...?
... and of course the above-referenced post totally negates the the previous statement that ... "Tesla - the only manufacturer who've really tried to make much of their own charging network - gave up on that, remember?" ... as they've neither given up on expanding their own network nor using it to provide both a sourcing incentive & brand awareness ...
Anyway, why concentrate on what Tesla have done, they're not the only player in the EV market ... the future potential for any marque to provide 'energy inclusive' packages simply follows on from previous purchasing incentives such as fuel, insurance, servicing etc, whilst limited mileage lease or PCP deals provide an almost ideal fit for included energy offerings, effectively having vehicles provided as part of a known payment 'service' package ...
As mentioned earlier, in terms of the automotive industry's global plant, tooling & marketing investment, the cost of building low carbon generation plant to provide a competitive & ecological advantage could be relatively low, and there's always the possibility of partnering with energy generation organisations to reduce capital investment .... think of it as being similar to a mobile phone contract with inclusive minutes, texts etc - buy into the package as a service and upgrade the 'device' to a pre-defined schedule .... isn't that the direction that many sectors are moving anyway, so why would automotive be any different!? ... and, of course, unused mileage (as kWh) can be sold at a profit though the national grid, providing an additional revenue stream ...
HTH
Z"We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle0 -
Absolutely. Similar to the nuclear and fossil fuel industries getting government assistance. Car battery now full of solar energy again.It must be lovely to have everybody else subsidise your transport choices. Completely unsustainable, of course.The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
Oliver Wendell Holmes0 -
I'm not sure cost/kWh has that far to go - the technology is mature enough that individual cells are already very cheap
Yes, the cells are already down. They may come down a bit more, but I'm thinking more of the economies of scale when EVs are being built on the scale of ICE. Turn it the other way around and think how expensive an IC Engine would be to produce in small numbers.If that's the case how come my Renault Zoe 41kw battery is just 15kg heavier than the old 22kw battery. And is in a case the same size as the old 22kw battery so it's interchangable with the old battery
In your world of limits have been reached such a thing is not possible ?
Yep, I'm aware that the Zoe has squeezed much more into the same space - that won't happen again (that happened already, in 2017). Zoe was ahead of her time - I'm thinking of other cars being built from the ground up to take EV gear (Zoe sort of was, but also to share as much as possible, including the production line, with the Clio, for cost) - no space for exhausts or gearboxes - this is a rarity at the moment. A car the size of a Zoe (Clio sized) won't squeeze much more kWh in - maybe 60hWh max. Then you're out of space with current tech.Reading this thread kind of reinforces my prejudices about electric vehicles. Namely that battery tech just isn't there yet. Li-On batteries begin degrading the moment they pop out of the production line.
300 charge cycles or so and the internal corrosion has knocked off 8% of their capacity, and realistically what is the range of a brand new fully charged Nissan Leaf with the stereo on loud, the heather blowing heat, and headlights on - 100 miles?
The stereo on loud. The lights on. Hilarious. Do some basic maths. Start with Watts versus KiloWatts. 150 miles, say, for the 40KWh Leaf. 60kWh coming.
You're confusing 2010 cautious figures with 2018 real figures. EVs manage their batteries better than laptops.Completely unsustainable, of course.
I think Martin made this point, but I'll make it more politely - relying on fossil fuels is the unsustainable bit. EV subsidies are a financial incentive to move away from them. I've taken £9,500 so far off the purchase price of 2 cars but it has, of course, cost me money.0 -
Have you managed to come up with any figures on how many people do 200+ miles in a single trip?You may not. But extrapolation is not a great ploy in general.
You say you do, but that extrapolation is not a great ploy.
destination charging seems to be experiencing significant growth. I'm seeing more and more places with EV charging spaces.And, unless there's a guarantee of decent-rate destination charging, we're talking about 100 miles each way, 200 mile round trip.0
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