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  • Sgt Pepper
    • #2
    • 30th Jun 12, 10:03 PM
    • #2
    • 30th Jun 12, 10:03 PM
    Doesn't just apply to cyclists,
    • marlot
    • By marlot 1st Jul 12, 8:08 AM
    • 4,122 Posts
    • 3,228 Thanks
    marlot
    • #3
    • 1st Jul 12, 8:08 AM
    • #3
    • 1st Jul 12, 8:08 AM
    We could cut road deaths much further if we really wanted to.

    It always seems crazy that I have to do annual top-up training as an engineer and accountant - or I can be fined/struck off by my professional bodies.

    But I can pass my driving test at 17, and never have a further day of training ever, not even when I reach 70. And my driving is much more likely to kill someone than my engineering or accounting.

    I see people daily who are oblivious to the risks they are causing to themselves and others. Driving too close, not paying attention, using a mobile while driving, etc. I can only think that they either don't know what they're doing, or don't care.

    I strongly believe that every driver should have some top-up training (not a test) every 2-3 years.

    Instead we have a system that ignores the issues, and lets the bad habits get worse and worse. But then when the worst happens, we (maybe) throw the book at a driver who made the error - eg. up to 14 years in jail for causing death by dangerous drivinng.
    Last edited by marlot; 01-07-2012 at 8:16 AM.
    • Strider590
    • By Strider590 1st Jul 12, 9:17 AM
    • 11,622 Posts
    • 6,535 Thanks
    Strider590
    • #4
    • 1st Jul 12, 9:17 AM
    • #4
    • 1st Jul 12, 9:17 AM
    This is why a lot of cyclists are now turning to helmet camera's..... Drivers get away with this because there's never any evidence, but in cases where they've been caught on camera, the prosecution has almost always been swift and harsh.
    I may not agree with you, but I will defend to the death your right to make an a** of yourself.

    <><><><><><><><><<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Don't forget to like and subscribe \/ \/ \/
    • custardy
    • By custardy 1st Jul 12, 9:54 AM
    • 35,249 Posts
    • 29,935 Thanks
    custardy
    • #5
    • 1st Jul 12, 9:54 AM
    • #5
    • 1st Jul 12, 9:54 AM
    We could cut road deaths much further if we really wanted to.

    It always seems crazy that I have to do annual top-up training as an engineer and accountant - or I can be fined/struck off by my professional bodies.

    But I can pass my driving test at 17, and never have a further day of training ever, not even when I reach 70. And my driving is much more likely to kill someone than my engineering or accounting.

    I see people daily who are oblivious to the risks they are causing to themselves and others. Driving too close, not paying attention, using a mobile while driving, etc. I can only think that they either don't know what they're doing, or don't care.

    I strongly believe that every driver should have some top-up training (not a test) every 2-3 years.

    Instead we have a system that ignores the issues, and lets the bad habits get worse and worse. But then when the worst happens, we (maybe) throw the book at a driver who made the error - eg. up to 14 years in jail for causing death by dangerous drivinng.
    Originally posted by marlot
    have to agree. I've been driving for over 20 years now
    plus I have the 'old' licence with the extra driving classifications by default.
    probably every 10 years would be a practical soft introduction to retesting.
    • Paradigm
    • By Paradigm 1st Jul 12, 11:04 AM
    • 3,448 Posts
    • 4,348 Thanks
    Paradigm
    • #6
    • 1st Jul 12, 11:04 AM
    • #6
    • 1st Jul 12, 11:04 AM

    I strongly believe that every driver should have some top-up training (not a test) every 2-3 years.
    Originally posted by marlot
    I like this idea, a compulsory hour or so with an approved instructor every few years makes sense to me.

    Lets not forget though, cyclists can take to the road with no formal training whatsoever which seems ludicrous given that they are the most vulnerable.
    Maybe some kind of safe riding course is needed?
    Always try to be at least half the person your dog thinks you are!
    • geri1965
    • By geri1965 1st Jul 12, 11:48 AM
    • 8,366 Posts
    • 14,004 Thanks
    geri1965
    • #7
    • 1st Jul 12, 11:48 AM
    • #7
    • 1st Jul 12, 11:48 AM
    I'd like to see motorists tested regularly, as it appears to me that some of them are not safe to be on the roads.

    I would also like to see more cycle training, I did the cycling proficiency test at school but there were only about half a dozen of us on it.
    • custardy
    • By custardy 1st Jul 12, 11:50 AM
    • 35,249 Posts
    • 29,935 Thanks
    custardy
    • #8
    • 1st Jul 12, 11:50 AM
    • #8
    • 1st Jul 12, 11:50 AM
    I like this idea, a compulsory hour or so with an approved instructor every few years makes sense to me.

    Lets not forget though, cyclists can take to the road with no formal training whatsoever which seems ludicrous given that they are the most vulnerable.
    Maybe some kind of safe riding course is needed?
    Originally posted by Paradigm

    In the majority(from my experience) of deaths/injuries
    the cyclist being 'trained' would have little bearing
    look at those links
    experienced cyclists
    the last 2 deaths in Edinburgh(theres been 4 in the last year)
    experienced/enthusiast cyclists(no charges in any of the four to my knowledge)
    In reality the a change in attitude from a massive percentage of drivers would have a far greater benefit.
    My last near death encounter was down to a taxi driver squeezing me off the road. an attempt to 'save' himself a few(at most) seconds.
    6 months later I'm paying out 00's in treatments,still not back on the bike,paying 00s in fuel and have the possibility of permanent nerve damage.
    • Paradigm
    • By Paradigm 1st Jul 12, 12:04 PM
    • 3,448 Posts
    • 4,348 Thanks
    Paradigm
    • #9
    • 1st Jul 12, 12:04 PM
    • #9
    • 1st Jul 12, 12:04 PM
    In the majority(from my experience) of deaths/injuries
    the cyclist being 'trained' would have little bearing
    look at those links
    experienced cyclists
    the last 2 deaths in Edinburgh(theres been 4 in the last year)
    experienced/enthusiast cyclists(no charges in any of the four to my knowledge)
    In reality the a change in attitude from a massive percentage of drivers would have a far greater benefit.
    My last near death encounter was down to a taxi driver squeezing me off the road. an attempt to 'save' himself a few(at most) seconds.
    6 months later I'm paying out 00's in treatments,still not back on the bike,paying 00s in fuel and have the possibility of permanent nerve damage.
    Originally posted by custardy
    I recognise what you are saying but some kind of formal training for cyclists can only be good surely?

    Ok, no amount of training will account for every situation/idiot but if it makes a cyclist more aware of the dangers then it helps minimise risk.
    Always try to be at least half the person your dog thinks you are!
    • custardy
    • By custardy 1st Jul 12, 12:06 PM
    • 35,249 Posts
    • 29,935 Thanks
    custardy
    I recognise what you are saying but some kind of formal training for cyclists can only be good surely?

    Ok, no amount of training will account for every situation/idiot but if it makes a cyclist more aware of the dangers then it helps minimise risk.
    Originally posted by Paradigm
    but how do you police that?
    you then need to register every bike in the UK?
    every rider?
    from what age?
    • Paradigm
    • By Paradigm 1st Jul 12, 12:18 PM
    • 3,448 Posts
    • 4,348 Thanks
    Paradigm
    but how do you police that?
    you then need to register every bike in the UK?
    every rider?
    from what age?
    Originally posted by custardy
    I haven't said it has to be compulsory.

    It could be a free Government sponsered scheme with some incentives chucked in to encourage cyclists to take part... I dunno, maybe 12 months free accident cover if you attend.

    To be honest it's not something I've sat & planned for months but it's just not logical to have no training for the most vulnerable road users.
    Always try to be at least half the person your dog thinks you are!
    • Strider590
    • By Strider590 1st Jul 12, 12:29 PM
    • 11,622 Posts
    • 6,535 Thanks
    Strider590
    Regular testing is not going to change drivers attitudes to cyclists!!!!!

    Abolish the VED, stop people from thinking they "pay road tax" and thus have more right to be there than a cyclist.

    But even that doesn't address "big theory", where the bigger or more expensive your vehicle, the more important you think you are on the roads.
    I may not agree with you, but I will defend to the death your right to make an a** of yourself.

    <><><><><><><><><<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Don't forget to like and subscribe \/ \/ \/
  • vax2002
    I do a fair bit of Cycling myself, well I own a bike...
    However you do get the militant Road rage cyclist who insist on undertaking vehicles turning left, they dont get it that if someone over takes you on the right, that does not mean you can undertake them on the left if they are turning left a mile later.
    Unless you want to DIE that is.
    A cycle never is the weapon of choice in a road rage argument.

    The best I have seen was a female driver turning left off a dual carriageway when Mr Militant decides to undertake and he ends up grabbing the mirror and hurling abuse, to which she shouted at the top her voice.
    You sir are going to end up as a F****ing stain on the road if you keep riding like that.
    Classic line.
    I do often wonder how many killed are militant car haters in Hi viz clothing as opposed to those who obey the traffic rules and highway code.
    We know some drivers make mistakes as well, but that is not the correct tool to enforce your anger upon.
    Become a bus driver if you want to run people over.
    • custardy
    • By custardy 1st Jul 12, 12:53 PM
    • 35,249 Posts
    • 29,935 Thanks
    custardy
    I haven't said it has to be compulsory.

    It could be a free Government sponsered scheme with some incentives chucked in to encourage cyclists to take part... I dunno, maybe 12 months free accident cover if you attend.

    To be honest it's not something I've sat & planned for months but it's just not logical to have no training for the most vulnerable road users.
    Originally posted by Paradigm
    you are assuming a lot.
    many cyclists hold a driving licence for a start
    I have 30+ years experience
    Theres plenty of help and advice out there for cyclists(not least of all from other experienced cyclists)
    The type you are refferring to are unlikely to go looking for it.
    hell they even have regular events in Edinburgh where they give out free lights.
    considering how cheap they(basic lights) are,its madness thjis has to be done.
    • custardy
    • By custardy 1st Jul 12, 1:17 PM
    • 35,249 Posts
    • 29,935 Thanks
    custardy
    oh and heres a good one for my city council.
    going for world cycling city status.
    The world famous Princes street and infamous trams(overbudget,overdue and now reduced service)



    cycle friendly?
  • Dave_C
    Lets not forget though, cyclists can take to the road with no formal training whatsoever which seems ludicrous given that they are the most vulnerable.
    Maybe some kind of safe riding course is needed?
    Originally posted by Paradigm
    Some answers to this old chestnut
    1. This is classic victim blaming.
    2. Many cyclists are also car drivers.
    3. Lets not forget though, pedestrians can walk on the road with no formal training whatsoever which seems ludicrous given that they are the most vulnerable.
      Maybe some kind of safe walking course is needed?
    Dave
    • Paradigm
    • By Paradigm 1st Jul 12, 2:08 PM
    • 3,448 Posts
    • 4,348 Thanks
    Paradigm
    you are assuming a lot.
    many cyclists hold a driving licence for a start
    I have 30+ years experience
    Theres plenty of help and advice out there for cyclists(not least of all from other experienced cyclists)
    The type you are refferring to are unlikely to go looking for it.
    hell they even have regular events in Edinburgh where they give out free lights.
    considering how cheap they(basic lights) are,its madness thjis has to be done.
    Originally posted by custardy
    What am I assuming? The fact that anyone can buy a bike & be on the road without any form of training isn't an assumption & that's all I was saying.
    I wasn't attacking cyclists or was I proposing the old "they should pay road tax" chestnut... quite where your over defensive rant came from I dunno.

    I don't remember referring to any "type"?
    Always try to be at least half the person your dog thinks you are!
    • custardy
    • By custardy 1st Jul 12, 2:17 PM
    • 35,249 Posts
    • 29,935 Thanks
    custardy
    What am I assuming? The fact that anyone can buy a bike & be on the road without any form of training isn't an assumption & that's all I was saying.
    I wasn't attacking cyclists or was I proposing the old "they should pay road tax" chestnut... quite where your over defensive rant came from I dunno.

    I don't remember referring to any "type"?
    Originally posted by Paradigm
    The 'type' are those without experience or knowledge
    Or do you propose someone with 30 years+ cycling experience goes on a course?
    I'm active in both face to face and online cycling meets/information exchanges
    So i see the type of people who come looking for help & advice.
    its common for folks to come to the Edinburgh bike based forums and ask advice on routes,techniques etc
    I as get to hear about lots of injuies and the multitudes of near misses
    so that type of person is already looking for the information & advice.
    my point(not rant as you seem to think it is) is that as usual theres usually an angle that somehow theres an underlying cause from the cyclist.
    The storys I lniked to(and i can get more if you wish) show experienced cyclists who are killed through driver error(if im being generous)
  • gkerr4
    I recognise what you are saying but some kind of formal training for cyclists can only be good surely?
    Originally posted by Paradigm
    absolutely not. This is just blame shaming - "hmm, cyclist seem to be getting killed a lot - lets train them some more"

    when was the last time a cyclist ran into a car and killed or injured the car driver...hmm practically never? even the cyclist / cyclist or cyclist / pedestrian interface is practically unheard of.

    it's the other way around - driver education - that they don't own the road, that there are vulnerable road users out there for whom they have a duty of care and that they need to just share the damned road a bit better.

    its in the drivers interest to do this also - as every cyclist on the road is probably one less car on the morning commute.
  • Sgt Pepper
    Some answers to this old chestnut
    1. This is classic victim blaming.
    2. Many cyclists are also car drivers.
    3. Lets not forget though, pedestrians can walk on the road with no formal training whatsoever which seems ludicrous given that they are the most vulnerable.
      Maybe some kind of safe walking course is needed?
    Dave
    Originally posted by Dave_C
    So if the driver is found not guilty, who's fault might it be?
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