Indigo railway "penalty notice" - appeal rejected

nosferatu1001 · 9 March 2018 at 12:35PM

Clamping - again, INdigo would be nus to try it. Clamping was madce ILLEGAL in 2012 (POFA) and there is nothing in the byelaws enabling legisltion that allows clamping for an alleged breach. If they did clamp the vehicle it would be a call to the police, and to your solicitors for a 5 figure settlement for illegal detention

freddie212 · 15 March 2018 at 1:32AM

Clamping is allowed under railway byelaw 14 section 4 part ii, apparently:
Without prejudice to Byelaw 14(4)(i), any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance used, left or placed in breach of Byelaw 14(1) to 14(3) may be clamped, removed, and stored, by or under the direction of an Operator or authorised person.

There are clamping signs around the car park. I gather that POFA doesn't apply here, if they're using byelaws rather than a breach of contract.

Thanks everyone. I haven't yet received a NtK, just the PCN so far. Although I read somewhere that Indigo doesn't send NtKs anymore.

Called Indigo to ask whether they are alleging a breach of contract or a breach of railway byelaws. Reply was "breach of contract under railway byelaws so both, really." Maybe he actually meant "breach of terms and conditions under railway byelaws"... hmm. I also pointed out that the PCN offers, on the back, an appeal with POPLA and they had failed to honour it. They just said that they don't offer this anymore. So why's it printed on the back of the ticket?? I feel a complaint to BPA coming on. And a complaint to the TOC. And a game of ping-pong?
OR... should I not complain to the TOC because then they have my details?

waamo · 15 March 2018 at 2:02AM

You have to have an SIA license to clamp and nobody has one of those.

financerulez · 15 March 2018 at 7:30AM

I wouldn't complain to TOC until after the 6 month point, just in case. They'll not do anything anyway, so no need to take the risk.

Yeah we know what the byelaws say about clamping, that doesn't mean they're right though. As said above, there is no enabling legislation that allows it. Also note that it says clamping is allowed if a breach of the byelaws takes place. It doesn't say clamping is allowed for an ALLEGED breach of byelaws. To clamp, they would need to go through Mag Court and prove that a breach has occurred.

Why the heck did you call Inidgo?! Before a NtK? You might still be able to argue this isn't evidence you were the driver, but you're not following the process advised. And we never advise calling!

Send what Indigo told you to the DVLA please. DVLA have previously gotten angry about PPCs blending contract and civil law to confuse consumers. You can find David Dunford's email on here somewhere - please take the 2 minutes to actually send this DVLA complaint. Here it is: David.Dunford@dvla.gsi.gov.uk. Maybe also copy the email to their complaints department.

I think your goal will be to time it out, and see what their correspondence brings up about pursuing the breach of contract. The fact they are still relying on byelaws for the breach of contract, means they would still need to turn the alleged breach into a proven breach, and at the end of the day that means they need to go to Magistrates' Court.

Umkomaas · 15 March 2018 at 8:29AM

There are clamping signs around the car park. I gather that POFA doesn't apply here, if they're using byelaws rather than a breach of contract.

Trespassers will be shot!

Handbags-at-dawn · 15 March 2018 at 9:59AM

Umkomaas wrote: »

Trespassers will be shot!

Exactly!

It's easy to forget, in the face of such official-looking signage and notices, that the criminal justice system in this country is designed to protect us all from unfair treatment. This means: i) everyone is presumed innocent until proved guilty by an independent tribunal (ie Magistrates Court or Crown Court); ii) the said tribunal will have no financial interest in the outcome (imagine if the Magistrates could pocket the fines they impose); iii) the punishment will fit the crime.

Thus a motorist accused of parking in breach of the Railway Byelaws (which is a criminal offence) is presumed innocent, and cannot be punished, unless and until he is found guilty in the Magistrates Court. And any penalty he is ordered by the Court to pay goes into the State purse. Even the DfT have admitted (albeit reluctantly) that only the Magistrates can impose a penalty for breach of the Byelaws.

So what do we have here? We've got private enterprises trying to impose their own home-made penalties, without trial, on the basis of an unproven allegation, with no opportunity whatsoever to appeal to an independent tribunal; pocketing the proceeds; and worst of all, threatening to clamp until their wholly unwarranted demands are met.

This is third world stuff. It drives a coach and horses through our ancient laws - laws which were developed to protect our human rights and stretch back over eight centuries, from Magna Carta through the Bill of Rights Act to the modern-day European Convention on Human Rights; laws which would require earth-shattering legislation to repeal. A poxy little Byelaw can't do it.

freddie212 · 15 April 2018 at 9:26PM

Update.. I left it until I had something to report as I don't believe in bothering everyone with too many posts!

I never did receive a NtK. I just received a ZZPS letter though demanding £170. Is the strategy now then to:
1) Write letters.. but to Indigo or to ZZPS? And: dumb ones asking questions, or shirty ones saying I'm not paying due to penalties not being legal under contract law, and there being no debt until decided by a magistrate under railway byelaws?
2) Do nothing.

If it's (1), should I point out that of course I cannot actually remember who the driver was that day? It might have been me, it might not have. I remember it was me putting the permit in the window though. Their little information gathering *cough* I mean appeal form had the "I am the driver" ticked automatically and greyed out to look like it can't be unticked, *and* if you do untick it, it forces you to enter the driver's details, or the form cannot be submitted. So I'm minded to write to them to tell them that I left it ticked simply because I didn't think it mattered.

Finally, here's the main deal. I took a photo of the T&Cs board at the entrance of the station, and under "Railway Byelaws: Terms of Use" regarding permits it says only "You must purchase a valid ticket or permit and/or purchase a valid cashless parking session covering the duration of the stay". Nowhere does it say that a permit or ticket must be displayed!! And of course, I had purchased a permit. Which they could have checked, if they had been bothered.

thanks as always.

Redx · 15 April 2018 at 9:42PM

as post #4 of the NEWBIES FAQ tells you, IGNORE the debt collectors

if INDIGO are writing then you reply, refuting it all same as in other INDIGO threads, especially read the thread by financerulez http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5789847 as welll, so you get the gist

once 6 months has passed its too late for the TOC to enforce the bylaws in the Magistrates Court

so always take umbrage with INDIGO and point out their errors and misconceptions by reading what others have already done and follow their lead

waamo · 15 April 2018 at 9:48PM

It's up to you what kind of letters you write. They aren't going to do anything other than threaten you and continue to demand money so feel free to take whatever approach you favour.

Coupon-mad · 16 April 2018 at 1:40AM

Their little information gathering *cough* I mean appeal form had the "I am the driver" ticked automatically and greyed out to look like it can't be unticked, *and* if you do untick it, it forces you to enter the driver's details, or the form cannot be submitted. So I'm minded to write to them to tell them that I left it ticked simply because I didn't think it mattered.

OMG we know all this, and no-one leaves that box ticked. Oh dear.

All people need to do is untick it and put 'none of your business - the keeper is not liable' (or similar) in the driver box.

Never mind but boy oh boy that was a mistake.

DO NOT draw attention to having left that box ticked.

It will still time out after six months. Reply and wind them up if you like.

Indigo railway "penalty notice" - appeal rejected

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