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    • SteveJB58
    • By SteveJB58 8th Feb 19, 12:14 PM
    • 2Posts
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    SteveJB58
    Standing Charge Abuse
    • #1
    • 8th Feb 19, 12:14 PM
    Standing Charge Abuse 8th Feb 19 at 12:14 PM
    Having just looked at the tariffs on offer from E-On, I am very angry to see them using the standing charge as a means of generating extra money. Given the standing charge is SUPPOSED to cover the overheads of getting the gas to your house, why is it different for each tariff? To give one example: gas SC on standard tariff is 25.82p per day - on Fix2year it is 32.393. Quite frankly, this is outrageous, has been known about (as a simple internet search reveals) for at least 5 years and needs to be stopped.
Page 1
    • wavelets
    • By wavelets 8th Feb 19, 12:19 PM
    • 1,116 Posts
    • 467 Thanks
    wavelets
    • #2
    • 8th Feb 19, 12:19 PM
    • #2
    • 8th Feb 19, 12:19 PM
    Having just looked at the tariffs on offer from E-On, I am very angry to see them using the standing charge as a means of generating extra money. Given the standing charge is SUPPOSED to cover the overheads of getting the gas to your house, why is it different for each tariff? To give one example: gas SC on standard tariff is 25.82p per day - on Fix2year it is 32.393. Quite frankly, this is outrageous, has been known about (as a simple internet search reveals) for at least 5 years and needs to be stopped.
    Originally posted by SteveJB58


    There are tariffs with zero standing charge. Does that mean I have to arrange my own delivery of the gas to my home?

    Surely all that matters is the overall cost.

    Consult a comparsison site to find the best deal for you.
    • Robin9
    • By Robin9 8th Feb 19, 12:20 PM
    • 3,739 Posts
    • 2,385 Thanks
    Robin9
    • #3
    • 8th Feb 19, 12:20 PM
    • #3
    • 8th Feb 19, 12:20 PM
    What is important is not the Standing Charge or the Unit Rate but the combination of the two.
    Never pay on an estimated bill
    • BodyOfBones
    • By BodyOfBones 8th Feb 19, 12:21 PM
    • 248 Posts
    • 49 Thanks
    BodyOfBones
    • #4
    • 8th Feb 19, 12:21 PM
    • #4
    • 8th Feb 19, 12:21 PM
    Move to another provider.

    Have you complained to EON about this?

    What does OFGEM say about this matter?

    You could always start a Petition to Parliament to get them to change it.
    • Bansky
    • By Bansky 8th Feb 19, 12:26 PM
    • 219 Posts
    • 703 Thanks
    Bansky
    • #5
    • 8th Feb 19, 12:26 PM
    • #5
    • 8th Feb 19, 12:26 PM
    Having just looked at the tariffs on offer from E-On, I am very angry to see them using the standing charge as a means of generating extra money. Given the standing charge is SUPPOSED to cover the overheads of getting the gas to your house, why is it different for each tariff? To give one example: gas SC on standard tariff is 25.82p per day - on Fix2year it is 32.393. Quite frankly, this is outrageous, has been known about (as a simple internet search reveals) for at least 5 years and needs to be stopped.
    Originally posted by SteveJB58
    So just under 24 a year or 2 per month?

    Is the saving on the fixed tariff more than that or not is the question.
    Last edited by Bansky; 08-02-2019 at 12:28 PM.
    A picture is worth a thousand words
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    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 8th Feb 19, 1:08 PM
    • 27,710 Posts
    • 13,600 Thanks
    Cardew
    • #6
    • 8th Feb 19, 1:08 PM
    • #6
    • 8th Feb 19, 1:08 PM
    The costs associated with getting gas/electricity to premises are just another overhead - like salaries, meter reading, accounts tax etc - for the energy compnay to take into account in their tariff pricing structure.


    If, as you appear to advocate, the Daily Standing Charge(DSC)should cover actual costs, how would you reconcile the different costs involved in getting a supply to different properties. e.g. a terraced house with no front garden a few feet from the main supply or a house a couple of hundred yards from a mains supply. Should they each pay a different DSC?


    The idea of competition in the Energy sector is to allow companies to offer customers a 'package' for each tariff. That package has variables - gas/electricity price, DSC, discounts, incentives, leaving penalties etc.
    • JJ Egan
    • By JJ Egan 8th Feb 19, 1:15 PM
    • 11,692 Posts
    • 5,225 Thanks
    JJ Egan
    • #7
    • 8th Feb 19, 1:15 PM
    • #7
    • 8th Feb 19, 1:15 PM
    I prefer SC to the old method of charging more for the first XX used .
    • gsmlnx
    • By gsmlnx 8th Feb 19, 1:20 PM
    • 1,332 Posts
    • 973 Thanks
    gsmlnx
    • #8
    • 8th Feb 19, 1:20 PM
    • #8
    • 8th Feb 19, 1:20 PM
    So just under 24 a year or 2 per month?

    Is the saving on the fixed tariff more than that or not is the question.
    Originally posted by Bansky
    Sorry but your maths is incorrect

    25.82p per day x 365 days = 94.243
    32.393p per day x 365 days = 118.23445

    So quite a bit more in reality.
    • wavelets
    • By wavelets 8th Feb 19, 1:31 PM
    • 1,116 Posts
    • 467 Thanks
    wavelets
    • #9
    • 8th Feb 19, 1:31 PM
    • #9
    • 8th Feb 19, 1:31 PM
    I prefer SC to the old method of charging more for the first XX used .
    Originally posted by JJ Egan
    Can I ask why?

    Under the old method, you would not usually ever pay any more than the standing charge, but low users (or those that use low amounts at certain times of the year, e.g. gas) would benefit.

    i.e. the addition of the premiums on unit charge up to the first XX would equal the standing charge that would otherwise apply; use less than XX and you effectively pay a lower standing charge.

    As this is supposed to be a moneysaving site, then moneysavers would usually prefer the 2 tier method of charging.
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 8th Feb 19, 2:03 PM
    • 27,710 Posts
    • 13,600 Thanks
    Cardew
    Can I ask why?

    Under the old method, you would not usually ever pay any more than the standing charge, but low users (or those that use low amounts at certain times of the year, e.g. gas) would benefit.

    i.e. the addition of the premiums on unit charge up to the first XX would equal the standing charge that would otherwise apply; use less than XX and you effectively pay a lower standing charge.

    As this is supposed to be a moneysaving site, then moneysavers would usually prefer the 2 tier method of charging.
    Originally posted by wavelets

    But very low users can be better off with a Zero DSC
    • matelodave
    • By matelodave 8th Feb 19, 2:12 PM
    • 4,185 Posts
    • 2,654 Thanks
    matelodave
    As I use quite a lot of leccy, I am happy to pay a higher standing charge to offset lower kwh charges.

    An extra 1p/kwh equates to a 72p/a increase for me whereas even 10p a day extra on the standing charge is only 36.50p/a so I'm much better off.

    AS said above you need to do your sums to work out which tariff works best for your annual consumption.
    Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large numbers
    • wavelets
    • By wavelets 8th Feb 19, 2:19 PM
    • 1,116 Posts
    • 467 Thanks
    wavelets
    But very low users can be better off with a Zero DSC
    Originally posted by Cardew
    You have to be really, really low to be better off on a zero daily standing charge.

    I think for gas, someone worked out it was at about 1000kWh (based on Ebico charges)

    We've currently secured a 1 year fix for gas with standing charge that beats any zero standing charge tariff for all but the very minimum of usage.(sadly not available any more to new applicants)

    3.30p/kWh & 3.15p/day (11.50 p.a.)
    ... less 10 p.a. Online billing discount

    http://www.brilliant-energy.co.uk/docs/Fair_Deal_37b_Gas.pdf

    On that, anything more than about 75kWh per year works out cheaper than Ebico charged on their zero DSC tariff.

    Just goes to demonstrate how appropriate my advice in post#2 really is
    Last edited by wavelets; 08-02-2019 at 2:25 PM.
    • Robin9
    • By Robin9 8th Feb 19, 2:23 PM
    • 3,739 Posts
    • 2,385 Thanks
    Robin9
    Sorry but your maths is incorrect

    25.82p per day x 365 days = 94.243
    32.393p per day x 365 days = 118.23445

    So quite a bit more in reality.
    Originally posted by gsmlnx
    Gsminx = (minus) .0.00855 In my mind is not "quite a bit more." than Banksy's approximation of 24 - actually its less
    Never pay on an estimated bill
    • The Green Hornet
    • By The Green Hornet 8th Feb 19, 3:38 PM
    • 425 Posts
    • 647 Thanks
    The Green Hornet
    Standing charge

    A fixed monthly/daily amount that you pay your electricity/gas supplier for maintenance and other costs, such as maintaining connection to the power network.

    https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/key-term-explained/standing-charge
    • matelodave
    • By matelodave 8th Feb 19, 5:57 PM
    • 4,185 Posts
    • 2,654 Thanks
    matelodave
    A lot of people dont understand the concept of the standing charge whether it be for water, gas, telephone or leccy.

    It's to actually get the service to your your house from the waterworks, gas supplier, phone exchange and even the power station.

    It cost lots of money to dig holes, put up pylons, string cables or bury pipes together with renewing and maintaining them.

    Even if you dont use much it still costs the same to provide all the infrastructure. Dont forget all the kit inside the power station, telephone exchange or water/sewerage works as well - some of it is ever so expensive and costly to maintain especially if you want 365/24/7/ d service to be available.

    However they try to average it out so the bloke who lives 100miles from the power station doesn't have to pay 100 times what those who live next door to it.

    Likewise it doesn't cost any less to get it to the door for those who use less than those who use more.

    However the energy companies do at least try to give you a choice of whether to pay more s/c or less per kwh so you can optimise your costs unlike the water or phone companies
    Last edited by matelodave; 08-02-2019 at 6:04 PM.
    Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large numbers
    • PennineAcute
    • By PennineAcute 8th Feb 19, 6:00 PM
    • 284 Posts
    • 123 Thanks
    PennineAcute
    I prefer SC to the old method of charging more for the first XX used .
    Originally posted by JJ Egan
    Great for high users but not for low users,
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 8th Feb 19, 7:36 PM
    • 27,710 Posts
    • 13,600 Thanks
    Cardew
    You have to be really, really low to be better off on a zero daily standing charge.

    I think for gas, someone worked out it was at about 1000kWh (based on Ebico charges)

    We've currently secured a 1 year fix for gas with standing charge that beats any zero standing charge tariff for all but the very minimum of usage.(sadly not available any more to new applicants)

    3.30p/kWh & 3.15p/day (11.50 p.a.)
    ... less 10 p.a. Online billing discount

    http://www.brilliant-energy.co.uk/docs/Fair_Deal_37b_Gas.pdf

    On that, anything more than about 75kWh per year works out cheaper than Ebico charged on their zero DSC tariff.

    Just goes to demonstrate how appropriate my advice in post#2 really is
    Originally posted by wavelets

    I have a little used annex with Ebico(zero DSC) with an estimated annual usage of 1,147kWh/136kWh gas/electricity costing 56/24pa.



    Some people have posted that they had a separate metered electricity supply to a detached garage or barn.



    For some years with BG on the old 2 tier tariffs. I had to pay 1 monthly by DD for both gas and electricity. However there was quite generous fixed payments for dual fuel and payment by DD. Most quarters this meant that these payments were more than the gas/electricity cost; so in practice BG were paying me for letting them supply my property!
    • SteveJB58
    • By SteveJB58 9th Feb 19, 4:46 PM
    • 2 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    SteveJB58
    The costs associated with getting gas/electricity to premises are just another overhead - like salaries, meter reading, accounts tax etc - for the energy compnay to take into account in their tariff pricing structure.


    If, as you appear to advocate, the Daily Standing Charge(DSC)should cover actual costs, how would you reconcile the different costs involved in getting a supply to different properties. e.g. a terraced house with no front garden a few feet from the main supply or a house a couple of hundred yards from a mains supply. Should they each pay a different DSC?


    The idea of competition in the Energy sector is to allow companies to offer customers a 'package' for each tariff. That package has variables - gas/electricity price, DSC, discounts, incentives, leaving penalties etc.
    Originally posted by Cardew

    I am not advocating the standing charge should cover 'actual' costs, I am simply saying that for a single supplier, the standing charge should be the same irrespective of what tariff someone is on. It appears that the Ofgen cap restricts energy prices (usage prices), so companies change the standing charge to bolster income i.e. I cannot charge any more for the gas the person is using, but I can increase their standing charge.
    • molerat
    • By molerat 9th Feb 19, 5:27 PM
    • 20,223 Posts
    • 14,504 Thanks
    molerat
    I am not advocating the standing charge should cover 'actual' costs, I am simply saying that for a single supplier, the standing charge should be the same irrespective of what tariff someone is on. It appears that the Ofgen cap restricts energy prices (usage prices), so companies change the standing charge to bolster income i.e. I cannot charge any more for the gas the person is using, but I can increase their standing charge.
    Originally posted by SteveJB58
    Incorrect assumption, the energy companies cannot charge more than the cap overall and there is also a separate ap on the 0 use price which is the standing charge.
    Last edited by molerat; 09-02-2019 at 5:29 PM.
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    • matelodave
    • By matelodave 9th Feb 19, 5:58 PM
    • 4,185 Posts
    • 2,654 Thanks
    matelodave
    If the OP wants a no standing charge tarriff then why not find a company that will supply him with one rather than whinging about a specific supplier's pricing policy.

    That's what competion is supposed to be about - much like the price of a tin of beans. Go to the place that sells them at the price you want to pay. However be careful that it doesn't cost you more in fuel or time just to save a couple of pence on the beans.
    Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large numbers
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