Suddenly got terrifying legal letters re: train penalty fare!
Comments
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I don't understand how they arrived at that figure? The hypothetical £60 would be "prosecution costs" which would only apply if the case went to court, and the original "fare avoided" is £53.00. I'm not sure how it works (we don't have penalty fares here in Scotland) but the letter should clarify exactly what you're being charged for.
It also says intentional fare avoidance is a criminal offence, which suggests unintentional fare avoidance (e.g. when you have a valid ticket which you could have produced within a few minutes if allowed to do so) is merely a civil offence, i.e. you owe them money, and a court may insist that it is paid and award costs involved in recovering the money, but the court will not impose additional punishment nor will you get a criminal record.
My advice is call their bluff. Send a letter by recorded delivery (keeping a copy of course) offering to pay the original £53 but disputing any additional charges. If they say that's not good enough, you can either try negotiating or just pay the £53 anyway, being careful to retain evidence of this, and inform them that as far as you're concerned the debt has been settled. No court could possibly find you guilty of fare evasion when you have in fact paid the fare (in addition to already holding a ticket which you'd forgotten), and they won't dare sue you in case the court decides you should not pay their stipulated penalty fare, which would then open the floodgates for refund claims.
You should communicate your willingness to pay the original fare immediately: don't wait until you have the money in hand in case they escalate matters in the meantime.
Also, be aware that disputing the amount they're trying to charge you may affect your credit rating, which may then be difficult to repair.0 -
Contains_Mild_Peril wrote: »It also says intentional fare avoidance is a criminal offence, which suggests unintentional fare avoidance (e.g. when you have a valid ticket which you could have produced within a few minutes if allowed to do so) is merely a civil offence, i.e. you owe them money, and a court may insist that it is paid and award costs involved in recovering the money, but the court will not impose additional punishment nor will you get a criminal record.
In OP's case it IS intentional fare evasion. They have a railcard that gives them up to 1/3 of standard ticket prices as long as they have the card in their possession when they make the journey, they knew and agreed to this when they applied for the railcard. As they knew they didn't have the railcard with them they should have bought a full price ticket.Accept your past without regret, handle your present with confidence and face your future without fear0 -
peachyprice wrote: »In OP's case it IS intentional fare evasion. They have a railcard that gives them up to 1/3 of standard ticket prices as long as they have the card in their possession when they make the journey, they knew and agreed to this when they applied for the railcard. As they knew they didn't have the railcard with them they should have bought a full price ticket.
Hello! Thanks for your input.
I appreciate you trying to help, but you seem to have very wrongly assumed that I intentionally travelled without my Network Railcard. Why have you assumed that?
I thought I had it with me (99% of the time, I do)
Regarding "fare evasion" I PAID the price I was supposed to. The only thing I did wrong is surely failing to check that I had my railcard...
Just a thought - Why do thousands of websites/services (such as Spotify) allow you to enter you discount details (eg. NUS card number) once, then give you a discounted price forever? Imagine Spotify asked you to show your NUS card ever time you played a song! How is this different? It would be totally effortless for every train company to check (via the web - without any human work) that you have indeed purchased the relevant discount railcard.
My opinion is that they choose not to, in order to make money.
Unless you guys can convince me otherwise very soon, I'll be resisting payment and making a campaign out of this which I intend to go national.
I'll spend the best part of a month getting people involved because it's not fair, and I don't care about rules as much as I care about what's fair. That's how I work, not sure about you?
If you think I'm missing something, please let me know! I'm still open to changing my perspective.0 -
I once missed a train due to a terrible incident on the tube-I saw my train moving out of the station and was with my elderly mum who naively thought I would be able to use my ticket on the next train.£74(train fare) later and my shocked mum then understood my anxiety to catch my original train.My advice would be to pay up and put it down to sad experience.I understand your frustration but this is a system and although you made an honest mistake the system does not not take it into account.
The dreadful incident involved a death-£74 in the end was "only"money.0 -
Hello! Thanks for your input.
I appreciate you trying to help, but you seem to have very wrongly assumed that I intentionally travelled without my Network Railcard. Why have you assumed that?
I thought I had it with me (99% of the time, I do)
Regarding "fare evasion" I PAID the price I was supposed to. The only thing I did wrong is surely failing to check that I had my railcard...
Look at it from the train companies point of view. They must deal with lots of people who "accidentally" selected a child or railcard discount from ticket machines in order to get through the ticket gates for a cheaper price. Producing a valid railcard along with the ticket at the time entitles you to that discount.Just a thought - Why do thousands of websites/services (such as Spotify) allow you to enter you discount details (eg. NUS card number) once, then give you a discounted price forever?
Are you sure that's the case? Forever?? I should get an NUS card...Imagine Spotify asked you to show your NUS card ever time you played a song! How is this different? It would be totally effortless for every train company to check (via the web - without any human work) that you have indeed purchased the relevant discount railcard.
My opinion is that they choose not to, in order to make money.
I believe that there is no national database of Network Railcards.
Clerks at a booking office will probably insist on seeing a railcard before selling a railcard discounted ticket, but
Online booking sites will require you to tick a box saying you will carry the required railcard with youUnless you guys can convince me otherwise very soon, I'll be resisting payment and making a campaign out of this which I intend to go national.
I'll spend the best part of a month getting people involved because it's not fair, and I don't care about rules as much as I care about what's fair. That's how I work, not sure about you?
If you think I'm missing something, please let me know! I'm still open to changing my perspective.
Please let us know the outcome of your campaign0 -
Unless you guys can convince me otherwise very soon, I'll be resisting payment and making a campaign out of this which I intend to go national.
I can see a new market opening, where me and my mates buy one railcard between us, and we each claim 'we must have left it at home' if we're the unlucky one challenged. Or my son hangs around the station offering to buy cut price tickets for each person in the queue.
There's a really good reason why it's mandatory to carry the railcard with you.0 -
OP - if the letter you have shown was dated this year I would advise writing back, explaining what happened, proving you had the card and offer to settle.
However THAT letter is now a month old. Given this, and hoping proceedings are not yet underway, at best I would advise you do above and now find the £53 and call the number outlining your intent - a court should look favourably on you then.
You asked for advice/ help and did say thanks. But you have flown in the face of the majority opinion on here. Do you really think it wise to start off "a campaign" given the facts behind your story.
As people have wisely advised - try looking at this from the other party's perspective. Then have a close look at your own action in this - and I mean after the incident.
I know you feel it is harsh and no one is doubting your story but don't let your emotion cloud what people are advising. You won't do it again.
Good luck anyhow0 -
Hello! Thanks for your input.
I appreciate you trying to help, but you seem to have very wrongly assumed that I intentionally travelled without my Network Railcard. Why have you assumed that?
No, read again. That's not what I said.
You bought a discounted ticket without knowing you had your railcard with you.
You either:
1. didn't bother to check you had it, which you must always do because you're not entitled to a discount without the card
or
2. Knew you didn't have it but took a chance that you wouldn't get stopped.
That is where intention comes into it.
The entire railcard system is based in trust, I don't have a railcard but I can go to any ticket machine or buy online saying I do have one and get the discount, I'd only get caught if, like you, I got stopped.
YOU agreed, when you bought the card, that you would only be entitled to the discount if you had the card with you. YOU chose to buy a ticket without the railcard, YOU broke that trust. If it helps you understand better, look at it like this: it's not the purchasing of the railcard that entitles you to a discount, it's the having the card with you that does.
Why do you think you are so special that those terms don't apply to you? Do tell.
So good luck with that campaign, you don't have a leg to stand on, you broke the terms of the railcard, intentionally or otherwise, doesn't matter, you chose to do so and got caught.Accept your past without regret, handle your present with confidence and face your future without fear0 -
Unless you guys can convince me otherwise very soon, I'll be resisting payment and making a campaign out of this which I intend to go national.
I'll spend the best part of a month getting people involved because it's not fair, and I don't care about rules as much as I care about what's fair. That's how I work
Oh please do go ahead with your plans,ignore everything posted on here,take it to the papers and get it on the main page as I for one will look forward to reading it. Your selection as a response bears no relationship to the offence you are being charged with, you may have paid the correct price BUT you have to carry the card as well {you did not}. Carrying the card 99% of the time may be all right in your eyes but {as has been proved now} if you are traveling on the train you need to carry it 100% of the time,be it fair or not rules are rules and {as you will find out if you choose to take such a stupid stand} if you break those rules there are comebacks.
I wholeheartedly agree with Blackbeard of Perranporth regarding what the fines should be and I would add a 3/6 months prison sentence on top, perhaps then people like you would think twice before thinking that your ideas supersedes what is clearly in the t&c's.0
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