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  • FIRST POST
    • ELL42
    • By ELL42 19th Oct 19, 10:46 PM
    • 3Posts
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    ELL42
    NHS Fixed term temporary from a permanent position
    • #1
    • 19th Oct 19, 10:46 PM
    NHS Fixed term temporary from a permanent position 19th Oct 19 at 10:46 PM
    Hi

    I've been working in the NHS for 12 years in total 11 as a band 5, in the last 12 months I was seconded into a band 6. My manager had a chat with me last week and said he's really pleased with my work and there's potentially a band 7 role in the pipeline but to get it through recruitment etc at the moment it's going to have to be a fixed term temporary role. He's now on a/l for two weeks and says we'll chat more when he's back, but... I have lots of questions and was hoping someone might be able to help.

    If I was to go for the role and I was successful would moving from my permanant/seconded role into a fixed term temporary basically mean I lost my rights as a perm employee?
    For example, if a management of change were to be commenced or the role ended can I go back to my previous role or have rights to redeployment/redundancy etc?
    Will I still get the same a/l and sickness entitlement?
    Will it affect my pension?

    Many thanks in advance

    ELL
Page 1
    • Manxman in exile
    • By Manxman in exile 20th Oct 19, 12:35 AM
    • 3,106 Posts
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    Manxman in exile
    • #2
    • 20th Oct 19, 12:35 AM
    • #2
    • 20th Oct 19, 12:35 AM
    There is no such thing as a "permanent" contract - it's a substantive contract.


    So long as your service is continuous you won't lose any redundancy or pension rights if you move to a temporary fixed term contract - in fact you would continue to accrue service.


    Question is, what happens at the end of the temporary fixed term contract? Will you be able to find another job? I don't think you can necessarily assume that your old - or any other - job will be there waiting for you at the end of the fixed term. (In fact, what happens at the end of your current secondment? Have you got any kind of undertaking from your trust's HR people - not just your manager - that you'll be able to go back to your old substantive post? I've known people in the NHS go on a secondment and find they've got no job to return to).


    These sort of questions are what your union rep is for. If you work in the NHS you really ought to be in a union.


    (NB - The above are the things I would have considered when still working in the NHS a few years ago. Not sure if the same considerations would still apply).
    • JamoLew
    • By JamoLew 20th Oct 19, 8:16 AM
    • 165 Posts
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    JamoLew
    • #3
    • 20th Oct 19, 8:16 AM
    • #3
    • 20th Oct 19, 8:16 AM
    I would say that yes the same consideration s would apply.

    OP, please don't take this the wrong way, but try and be realistic.

    I don't know your job role, education background etc etc, Band 7 generally is Masters level education (or equivalent) BUT a jump from band 5 to band 7 in 12 months is unlikely, I'm not saying it can't happen but it would be unusual. Plus you would be potentially up against experienced Band 6 candidates. In my profession, I have never seen this since agenda for change bandings were introduced.

    Please be realistic, but good luck !,
    • ELL42
    • By ELL42 20th Oct 19, 10:29 AM
    • 3 Posts
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    ELL42
    • #4
    • 20th Oct 19, 10:29 AM
    • #4
    • 20th Oct 19, 10:29 AM
    Thanks for your responses.

    Manxman, Im waiting for my union rep to get back to me, was just on my mind last night and thought I'd ask the question. Completely agree with you, the big question is what happens at the end of the contract and that's my biggest concern. For now I know my original role will still be there for me when the secondment ends.

    Jamo, I have thought the same and know the chances are slim... that's part of my thinking process with posting, trying to get the basic facts to see if it's even worth applying when the odds aren't really in my favour anyway. Wouldn't want to apply and somehow get it then and then start asking the questions.

    Thanks again
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 20th Oct 19, 2:24 PM
    • 10,185 Posts
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    Comms69
    • #5
    • 20th Oct 19, 2:24 PM
    • #5
    • 20th Oct 19, 2:24 PM
    In the default position would be redundancy payment, or suitable alternative position.
    • Blatchford
    • By Blatchford 20th Oct 19, 2:42 PM
    • 316 Posts
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    Blatchford
    • #6
    • 20th Oct 19, 2:42 PM
    • #6
    • 20th Oct 19, 2:42 PM
    The only certain things are death and taxes. You will one day die, and until then they will find a way to tax you. Beyond that, stop overthinking this! Your manager is really pleased with your performance in a seconded role (that's great news) and thinks enough of you to think that you would do well in a career progression (that's more great news) and is speaking to you about it even before they get the official word (probably to prevent you looking for a better job somewhere else, which is more great news because they think you might get a better offer somewhere else)… Do you get where I am going with this yet?

    Your continuous employment is secured in any NHS position (and with any associated employer as well), so the worst case scenario is that you get made redundant, which seems highly unlikely to happen because (a) there are always jobs in the NHS and (b) did you hear what he said - the only way to get a role created is to put it through as fixed term and then... (your manager was hinting that once created, the role disappearing was not likely to happen).

    So basically, the worst thing that can happen is that you apply and don't get it. So you have some experience of an interview at this level for the next time you go for one. And you actually need to think about whether you should apply? Your manager can't promise you a job. They can't promise you will be the best person at interview. But it doesn't get any better than what they have said - they want you (more great news).
    • ELL42
    • By ELL42 20th Oct 19, 3:14 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    ELL42
    • #7
    • 20th Oct 19, 3:14 PM
    • #7
    • 20th Oct 19, 3:14 PM

    Thank you so much Blatchford... can't believe how much clearer you've made things for me.. was so hung up on what it would mean if I did apply I lost sight of some blinking obvious facts that you've pointed out!
    • Ratkin007
    • By Ratkin007 22nd Oct 19, 10:56 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Ratkin007
    • #8
    • 22nd Oct 19, 10:56 PM
    • #8
    • 22nd Oct 19, 10:56 PM
    I have to disagree, though not an expert on such matters. If you sign a fixed term contract, you effectively know your end date before starting unless the post is extended. Yes you still have all your benefits but you do not have a job to return to and do not get redundancy, etc at the end. I have not worked for NHS but in local authorities it is common to advertise fixed term contracts. However if an internal candidate is interested, it is sometimes possible for them to do a secondment, meaning the substantive post is availabe to return to.
    I am currently on a fixed term contract and was told support would be given towards the end of the contact with alternatve employment, i.e being on redeployment, but there are no guarantees.
    All the best.
    • Blatchford
    • By Blatchford 23rd Oct 19, 7:10 AM
    • 316 Posts
    • 476 Thanks
    Blatchford
    • #9
    • 23rd Oct 19, 7:10 AM
    • #9
    • 23rd Oct 19, 7:10 AM
    I have to disagree, though not an expert on such matters. If you sign a fixed term contract, you effectively know your end date before starting unless the post is extended. Yes you still have all your benefits but you do not have a job to return to and do not get redundancy, etc at the end. I have not worked for NHS but in local authorities it is common to advertise fixed term contracts. However if an internal candidate is interested, it is sometimes possible for them to do a secondment, meaning the substantive post is availabe to return to.
    I am currently on a fixed term contract and was told support would be given towards the end of the contact with alternatve employment, i.e being on redeployment, but there are no guarantees.
    All the best.
    Originally posted by Ratkin007
    I'm sorry but your advice is simply not true, for local authorities or the NHS. If you have two or more years continuous service then you are entitled to redundancy pay in the UK. Full stop.

    At the end of a fixed term contract there is no entitlement to another job, but as you have pointed out, there is a right to a suitable alternative job if one is available through redeployment. Unless someone is mega fussy, there are many opportunities for redeployment in the NHS as they often struggle to recruit.

    Please don't tell people that taking a fixed term contract invalidates their redundancy rights because that isn't the case.
    • polgara
    • By polgara 23rd Oct 19, 8:55 AM
    • 428 Posts
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    polgara
    blatchford is totally correct (20+ years in the NHS experience here) - it’s the reason a number of people get redeployed following FTC/secondments when there are no posts to return to.

    A lot of organisations (NHS and local authorities) try the approach of you knew it was a FTC so you’re not entitled to redundancy but doesn’t mean that’s accurate.

    Edited out the isn’t as was a typo
    Last edited by polgara; 23-10-2019 at 8:04 PM.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 23rd Oct 19, 9:11 AM
    • 10,185 Posts
    • 12,357 Thanks
    Comms69
    I have to disagree, though not an expert on such matters. - clearly. If you sign a fixed term contract, you effectively know your end date before starting unless the post is extended. Yes you still have all your benefits but you do not have a job to return to and do not get redundancy, etc at the end. - yes you do, not just NHS, but that is what the law requires I have not worked for NHS but in local authorities it is common to advertise fixed term contracts. However if an internal candidate is interested, it is sometimes possible for them to do a secondment, meaning the substantive post is availabe to return to. - irrelevant.
    I am currently on a fixed term contract and was told support would be given towards the end of the contact with alternatve employment, i.e being on redeployment, but there are no guarantees.
    All the best.
    Originally posted by Ratkin007


    Why did you post when you have absolutely no knowledge on the topic? Perhaps instead you should learn from what's posted here and use that in your personal circumstances
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 23rd Oct 19, 9:13 AM
    • 10,185 Posts
    • 12,357 Thanks
    Comms69
    blatchford isn’t totally correct (20+ years in the NHS experience here) - it’s the reason a number of people get redeployed following FTC/secondments when there are no posts to return to.

    A lot of organisations (NHS and local authorities) try the approach of you knew it was a FTC so you’re not entitled to redundancy but doesn’t mean that’s accurate.
    Originally posted by polgara


    What are you talking about?


    2 or more years employment = redundancy payment (or suitable alternative role)


    How is Blatchford incorrect?
    • Manxman in exile
    • By Manxman in exile 23rd Oct 19, 11:19 AM
    • 3,106 Posts
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    Manxman in exile
    I agree with Comms69 and Blatchford - the FTC shouldn't affect any entitlement to redundancy assuming the OP's continuous service is as they say.


    I think polgara was attempting to say that some NHS/LA employers may try it on, but I don't believe any NHS trust I ever worked for would do so. (Some badly trained line managers may think so, but no HR dept would advise the OP that they'd lost their redundancy entitlement by moving to a FTC).


    A secondment might be the best approach for the OP, but there's still no guarantee that their original post will still be there to return to. I have seen secondees have to be redeployed or made redundant after the end of a secondment. (It was sometimes the best way to get rid of people).
    • polgara
    • By polgara 23rd Oct 19, 8:02 PM
    • 428 Posts
    • 424 Thanks
    polgara
    Oops sorry shouldn’t have posted via my phone - my comment was saying that Blatchford was correct! Damn autocorrect
    • Blatchford
    • By Blatchford 23rd Oct 19, 8:07 PM
    • 316 Posts
    • 476 Thanks
    Blatchford
    Oops sorry shouldn’t have posted via my phone - my comment was saying that Blatchford was correct! Damn autocorrect
    Originally posted by polgara
    Didn't even notice! My eyes must have inserted the missing word.... Yep, phones and tablets can be a nightmare when they decide to type something you didn't write
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