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  • FIRST POST
    • roytom
    • By roytom 18th Oct 19, 3:59 PM
    • 350Posts
    • 38Thanks
    roytom
    scratches on newly installed windows
    • #1
    • 18th Oct 19, 3:59 PM
    scratches on newly installed windows 18th Oct 19 at 3:59 PM
    I contracted with a window replacement company to put in new sealed units into existing wooden frames.
    A few weeks ago the installers arrived, unsatisfactorily equipped, and installed the individual window elements.
    Many of the panels have scratches on them due to poor installation practices and bad workmanship.
    The installers are claiming they wonít replace the scratched panes, except one (and on this they are attempting to back track) as they maintain that if the scratches cannot be seen from 3 metres away they donít have to do anything. They seem to think this is under some rules as prescribed by FENSA.
    Iíve had other windows replaced in the past and no scratches have ever been apparent after installation.
    Any advice please.
    Thanks
Page 1
    • shaun from Africa
    • By shaun from Africa 18th Oct 19, 4:30 PM
    • 11,305 Posts
    • 12,907 Thanks
    shaun from Africa
    • #2
    • 18th Oct 19, 4:30 PM
    • #2
    • 18th Oct 19, 4:30 PM
    as they maintain that if the scratches cannot be seen from 3 metres away they donít have to do anything. They seem to think this is under some rules as prescribed by FENSA.
    Originally posted by roytom
    Contact them again and tell them that you are not claiming that the windows are unsatisfactory under any FENSA rules but that they are unsatisfactory under the Consumer rights act:
    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/9/enacted
    Goods to be of satisfactory quality
    (1)Every contract to supply goods is to be treated as including a term that the quality of the goods is satisfactory.

    (3)The quality of goods includes their state and condition; and the following aspects (among others) are in appropriate cases aspects of the quality of goodsó
    (a)fitness for all the purposes for which goods of that kind are usually supplied;
    (b)appearance and finish;
    (c)freedom from minor defects
    How did you pay for the windows?
    • George Michael
    • By George Michael 18th Oct 19, 9:52 PM
    • 3,465 Posts
    • 4,663 Thanks
    George Michael
    • #3
    • 18th Oct 19, 9:52 PM
    • #3
    • 18th Oct 19, 9:52 PM
    They seem to think this is under some rules as prescribed by FENSA.
    Originally posted by roytom
    I would suggest contacting FENSA
    https://www.fensa.org.uk/contact-us
    and ask them about these "rules".
    If they don't exist, and as FENSA are only concerned with building regulation compliance, I very much doubt if there is such a rule then they may be interested in a company using their name to avoid having to replace faulty windows.
    • knight rider
    • By knight rider 19th Oct 19, 12:06 PM
    • 31 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    knight rider
    • #4
    • 19th Oct 19, 12:06 PM
    • #4
    • 19th Oct 19, 12:06 PM
    If you google it you will find they are correct regarding the 3 metre rule, we had the same problem 70% of the glass had scratches but the company we used changed them all even though he did not have to.
    • neilmcl
    • By neilmcl 19th Oct 19, 12:30 PM
    • 13,693 Posts
    • 10,228 Thanks
    neilmcl
    • #5
    • 19th Oct 19, 12:30 PM
    • #5
    • 19th Oct 19, 12:30 PM
    If you google it you will find they are correct regarding the 3 metre rule, we had the same problem 70% of the glass had scratches but the company we used changed them all even though he did not have to.
    Originally posted by knight rider
    A link would've been helpful, and besides, this "rule" or guideline is not the law, if the windows fail to conform to contract then the OP is entitled to have them remedied.
    • shaun from Africa
    • By shaun from Africa 19th Oct 19, 12:53 PM
    • 11,305 Posts
    • 12,907 Thanks
    shaun from Africa
    • #6
    • 19th Oct 19, 12:53 PM
    • #6
    • 19th Oct 19, 12:53 PM
    I would be very surprised if the guidelines allowed for anything more than extremely fine scratches as any significant scratch case severely weaken toughened glass (assuming that this is what the OP has) and make it far more likely to spontaneously shatter.
    • thearchitect
    • By thearchitect 21st Oct 19, 1:34 PM
    • 46 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    thearchitect
    • #7
    • 21st Oct 19, 1:34 PM
    Scratches
    • #7
    • 21st Oct 19, 1:34 PM
    I would be interested in a link to a 3m guidelines, I must admit.
    Health Warning: I am happy to occasionally comment on building matters on the forum. However it is simply not possible to give comprehensive professional technical advice on an internet forum. Any comments made are therefore only of a general nature to point you in what is hopefully the right direction.
    • George Michael
    • By George Michael 21st Oct 19, 1:49 PM
    • 3,465 Posts
    • 4,663 Thanks
    George Michael
    • #8
    • 21st Oct 19, 1:49 PM
    • #8
    • 21st Oct 19, 1:49 PM
    I would be interested in a link to a 3m guidelines, I must admit.
    Originally posted by thearchitect
    This sort of covers it (assuming that it's correct)
    http://www.atcglass.co.uk/techinfo-01a.php

    2. All panes of the sealed unit shall be viewed at right angles to the glass from the room side standing at a distance of not less than 2 meters (but for toughened, laminated or coated glasses not less than 3 meters) in natural daylight and not in direct sunlight with no visible moisture on the surface of the glass. The area to be viewed is the normal vision area with the exception of a 50mm wide band around the perimeter of the unit. (See Diagram 1 below)

    3. Flat transparent glass, including laminated or toughened glass, shall be deemed acceptable if the following phenomena are neither obtrusive nor bunched: totally enclosed seeds, bubbles or blisters; hairlines or blobs; fine scratches not more than 25mm long; minute embedded particles. Obtrusiveness of blemishes shall be judged by looking through the glass, not at it, under lighting conditions as described in 2.
    Ultimately, I suppose that it will come down to how a scratch is determined to be "fine" or not.
    • thearchitect
    • By thearchitect 21st Oct 19, 2:05 PM
    • 46 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    thearchitect
    • #9
    • 21st Oct 19, 2:05 PM
    Scratches
    • #9
    • 21st Oct 19, 2:05 PM
    I can't find the source document online, although it is widely quoted, but in the meantime.


    1. "Fine scratches". I agree with you, it's a matter of professional judgement.



    2. "25mm". This is, I suggest, important. A fine, localised scratch will obviously be less noticeable than one 150mm or so.


    There is also an issue about cumulative impact. One or two scratches might be okay, but frequent and close damage less so.
    Health Warning: I am happy to occasionally comment on building matters on the forum. However it is simply not possible to give comprehensive professional technical advice on an internet forum. Any comments made are therefore only of a general nature to point you in what is hopefully the right direction.
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